Inspire Courage - weaponlike spells?

[preacher]

Hi, apologies if this has been answered before, but my search function hasn't been fixed yet.

Do buffs like Inspire Courage, Prayer, etc. add damage to spells - particularly weaponlike spells?

The SRD states "weapon damage" but our group's rules lawyer has been insisting we apply it to everything from Ray spells, to Spiritual Weapon, to his Dancing Sword. I don't think it's at all clear that these qualify for these buffs.

Has there been any offical clarification on this, and what does the panel think?

 

[blargney the second]

There's clarification in Complete Arcana at the beginning of the Feats chapter.

 

[Mistwell]

Complete Arcane, Pg. 85:

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Player's Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells, as noted in Chapter 3 of this book. All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (as as the bard's inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don't increase damage from a weapon-like spell. Likewise, a weapon-like spell that deals normal damage can't be used to deal nonlethal damage or vice versa (except when modified by the Nonlethal Substitution feat or in accoredance with the specific regulations of a nonlethal spell duel as described on page 176).

It then goes on to discuss critical hits, sneak attacks, multiple hits, and that sort of stuff.

I hope that helps.

 

[preacher]

Superb - thanks folks.

 

[Nifft]

It wouldn't be particularly unbalancing, but I disagree that it's implied by the RAW.

1/ I can use Sunder or Disarm on a weapon. Can I use them on a weapon-like spell? IMHO: no.

2/ There are spells and maneuvers that allow you to throw a melee weapon and turn its damage into a Line effect. Should you be allowed to turn melee touch attack spells into Line effects? IMHO, no.

There are some ways in which a weapon-like spell is like a weapon, but the full extent of the similarities is spelled out (sneak attack, crit, weapon focus, etc.), and nowhere in the list did Inspire Courage appear.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Ah, and already answered. Oh well.

 

[ohGr]

FWIW, the Sage recently ruled no on this.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070806a

Q: Dear Sage
Does eldritch blast damage count as “weapon damage” for the purpose of inspire courage and other effects that add to weapon damage rolls?
--Dustin

A: No. Even though the eldritch blast is treated as “weaponlike” for the purpose of certain feats, it’s not a weapon.

Personally, i disagree with him on this one.

 

[preacher]

It wouldn't be particularly unbalancing

The trouble is that now we've been running it this way for a while, and the party has adapted its tactics to get maximum benefit from these buffs. So when the bard sings, the clerics cast their buffs, and everyone summons a conjured weapon and casts weaponlike spells to take advantage of the sick bonuses. I assume there must be feats or spells amplifying Inspire Courage's effects, but with IC and cleric buffs we were adding +6 to hit and damage during the last big fight. When you stack that onto a dancing sword, 2 spiritual weapons (we have 2 clerics), and various weaponlike spells, it all mounts up pretty fast. (Average party level is 8/9.)

You could argue that this is just good tactics, but it just feels a bit unbalanced. The DM will counter by increasing the difficulty of encounters, and we'll get wiped one week when the bard isn't around. And the DM doesn't know the rules as well as this particular player - though he has noticed that the bonuses are being added to the dancing sword, and is about to nerf that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The trouble is that now we've been running it this way for a while,

That's not a problem. Keep running it that way- consider it a HR for the campaign.

Then for the next campaign, decide as a group whether to keep the HR or go by the published rules.

 

[Nifft]

IC and cleric buffs we were adding +6 to hit and damage during the last big fight. When you stack that onto a dancing sword, 2 spiritual weapons (we have 2 clerics), and various weaponlike spells, it all mounts up pretty fast. (Average party level is 8/9.)

+6 to damage, at level 9? Wow. I hope that's not just the Bard Song.

I'd argue that spiritual weapon cannot benefit from Morale effects, since it's not susceptible to [mind-affecting] effects.

Just to be clear, when I was talking about weaponlike spells benefiting, I mean the ones that you could use to deliver a Sneak Attack (rays, melee touch, etc.), not floating things that attacked on their own. I can see how this could easily get unbalancing!

Cheers, -- N

 

[preacher]

To be honest I don't know what buffs were floating around - the DM was a bit worried by it too, based on conversations after the game. The group mix is such that all of us - includng the DM - often rely on this one player as a kind of RAW expert, and he worked out what the total bonuses were. With Haste as well, we were +7 to hit and +6 to damage. Seemed excessive for our level.

(I can be a bit of a rules lawyer myself at time, in that I enjoy getting to understand the mechanics of a game, but I'm fairly newly back into D&D.)

The DM will house rule anything he thinks is wrong or unbalanced, and I think after the last fighth he's going to look closely at the buffs we're using. I'm pretty sure he's going to rule that floating weapons don't get the bonuses, and now I can back him up with RAW from CA on not adding the damage to spells, if he wants to change that too.

Cheers.