Insubstantial seems very, very boring

[mattdm]

Hey, uh, if you're playing in my game this is kind of a spoiler so please stay out — thanks!


Is there some way in which taking half damage from all sources is different from just doubling hit points?

I mean, I understand it's useful as written for PCs that can use powers or items to become insubstantial for a short time. It just seems very colorless. There's the Inescapable Force feat which "puts back" 3E Incorporeal's full-damage from force, but that's basically a rare case rather than the norm.

I'm considering making insubstantial creatures (probably those with Resist Insubstantial only, not those with the ability to temporarily gain these qualities) only able to be harmed by typed damage — acid, cold, fire, force, etc. — the whole list from the PH. This will still only do ½ unless you have something like the Inescapable Force feat.

Is this crazy-talk? I know it makes it more important for melee-types to have magic weapons that can do energy damage, but I think I'm okay with that. (I can make sure they're available-enough to my players to help balance that.)

Do you have a better idea that helps deliver the color I'm looking for without introducing the very-un-4E situation of "you can't do a thing against this monster — let the wizard handle it"?

Or failing that, a way to help me visualize the it's-just-half-damage thing as okay.

Thanks!

 

[kaomera]

Do you have a better idea that helps deliver the color I'm looking for without introducing the very-un-4E situation of "you can't do a thing against this monster — let the wizard handle it"?

I'd suggest adding more ways to remove or get around insubstantial. Giving such creatures a vulnerability helps. You could also include terrain features or the like that could temporarily shut off the ability. You can create a situation where the PCs can make a side-trek (or even back-track after realizing that their attacks aren't doing much to the monster) to get ahold of a one-shot item (McGuffin) that will render the creature substantial for a round or three, and then they can unload their dailies, etc. (You just have to make sure that the players will know that option is there.)

It would be nice to see more powers and/or items that could get around insubstantial. Keep in mind, however, that most creatures in the MM with the ability seem to have lower than expected hps for their role and level, so don't go too nuts handing this stuff out...

 

[Ferdil]

Insubstantial creatures have less HP than other creatures, so there is no problem.

 

[DracoSuave]

Insubstantial creatures have an advantage when you use a lot of terrain elements. It's not the half-damage that's supposed to make them interesting, but the environment you stick them in. Many monsters are boring or weak when taken out of the context of a good environment.

 

[mattdm]

Insubstantial creatures have less HP than other creatures, so there is no problem.

*blink*

Right, otherwise they'd have to be higher level.

But that just emphasizes the boringness — since insubstantial has no effect except for making it seem like they have more hit points, except they have fewer hit points to match, it's literally meaningless.

Insubstantial creatures have an advantage when you use a lot of terrain elements. It's not the half-damage that's supposed to make them interesting, but the environment you stick them in. Many monsters are boring or weak when taken out of the context of a good environment.

I must be missing something. What terrain/environmental feature are you envisioning here? Some sort of magical field which makes the creatures solid as kaomera suggests? Doesn't that basically just lower the encounter level? Or are you talking about something else?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I must be missing something. What terrain/environmental feature are you envisioning here? Some sort of magical field which makes the creatures solid as kaomera suggests? Doesn't that basically just lower the encounter level? Or are you talking about something else?

Difficult terrain that slows creatures down, such as a swamp with lots of hidden bogs and pools. The insubstantial creature isn't slowed down at all, while the PCs might fall in and drown!

 

[mattdm]

Difficult terrain that slows creatures down, such as a swamp with lots of hidden bogs and pools. The insubstantial creature isn't slowed down at all, while the PCs might fall in and drown!

I realize that most creatures which are insubstantial also have phasing, and you're right, phasing isn't boring.

But what's the difference between a solid creature with phasing and a creature with phasing which is insubstantial?

That's a rhetorical question, because the answer is pretty clearly: nothing at all, except that the Inescapable Force feat makes force damage more than double.

 

[VenezuelanWiz]

If I recall correctly force effects do full damage to insubstancial creatures. That gives the Wizard: Cloud of Daggers, and the Artificer his at-will power that does force damage and increases AC of an ally. Sadly I'm at work and can't check the rules on force effects and insubstantial.

I just ran an encounter with 4 ghosts and a spectre and it wasn't boring at all. The ghosts kept fading into the floor and reappearing elsewhere with flanking breaking up the party fairly continously, and the spectre would go invisible appear in the centre of the party and knock them all prone. This wasn't even with difficult terrain.

It was a bit of a cakewalk cause the party was more powerful, but it was a lot of fun with many curses said by the party as the ghosts harried the wizard constantly cause she was the only one that could do real damage.

 

[ScottS]

(Sort of a general problem with the new edition... They tended to delete or nerf, rather than fix or replace, mechanics/abilities/etc. that were broken, even if they had interesting fantasy content attached.)

How about having the given energy type(s) cancel the insubstantial defense for a round (or have it reduce the damage reduction by some amount), similar to the way you can turn off troll regeneration and the like? Whoever has the correct kind of attack gets to be the 'enabler' for the other PCs to beat on it. That way you don't have to pass out flaming weapons to everyone.

edit: missed a few posts before mine and this was already sort of suggested, feel free to ignore

 

[DracoSuave]

I realize that most creatures which are insubstantial also have phasing, and you're right, phasing isn't boring.

But what's the difference between a solid creature with phasing and a creature with phasing which is insubstantial?

That's a rhetorical question, because the answer is pretty clearly: nothing at all, except that the Inescapable Force feat makes force damage more than double.

Firstly, most monsters with insubstantial have it as a temporary state garnered through the use of a power. This makes it less of a 'double their hit points' ability and more of a 'this is a temporary defense' ability. That makes it interesting.

Secondly, the ones that don't universally have either flying or phazing, so it's a part of the flavor of such ghostly entities. The party will feel tense when they find out that thing they're smacking around is taking half damage, and will only feel the sigh of relief when it is bloodied.

It's certainly a lot better than 'flip a coin, oh you failed, good thing you rolled to hit eh?'