Insubstantial seems very, very boring

[Khime]

This question seemed familiar, and I remembered a conversation about it from a few weeks ago:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237490

The only things mentioned in that thread that I've not seen here are:
- Halving damage means you do slightly less damage than you would than if you simply double hit points, due to rounding.
- A creature that is only sometimes insubstantial couldn't work with doubling HP
- 'insubstantial' adds a keyword that future powers/traps/environments/items can key off of to act differently toward (i.e. ghost wards that do damage only to insubstantial creatures)

 

[Aloïsius]

How about having the given energy type(s) cancel the insubstantial defense for a round (or have it reduce the damage reduction by some amount), similar to the way you can turn off troll regeneration and the like? Whoever has the correct kind of attack gets to be the 'enabler' for the other PCs to beat on it. That way you don't have to pass out flaming weapons to everyone.

edit: missed a few posts before mine and this was already sort of suggested, feel free to ignore

I won't ignore it, because it's brillant. Yoink !

 

[Chen_93]

Besides the magic weapon restriction, I believe insubstantial is the same as in the previous edition, mathematically anyways. You had 50% miss chance in 3.5 whereas here you do half damage. Its a less streaky situation now but it also removes the "feeling useless cause my attacked got negated" type thing.

 

[mattdm]

How about having the given energy type(s) cancel the insubstantial defense for a round (or have it reduce the damage reduction by some amount), similar to the way you can turn off troll regeneration and the like? Whoever has the correct kind of attack gets to be the 'enabler' for the other PCs to beat on it. That way you don't have to pass out flaming weapons to everyone.

Awesome — I like this one in combination with making them impossible to hit with normal (untyped) damage. Makes it a "take something / give something" house rule rather than just making them more powerful, and I like the party-cooperation effect.

I'll probably make it radiant damage which works this way, at least for most ghost-like creatures. So, time to move this to the house-rules forum.

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

 

[Nail]

How about having the given energy type(s) cancel the insubstantial defense for a round ..

"Radiant" I'm assuming?

Help me out: Why would fire, cold, lightning, etc cancel the insubstantial state? Be creative.

How about necrotic?

 

[James McMurray]

I'm considering making insubstantial creatures (probably those with Resist Insubstantial only, not those with the ability to temporarily gain these qualities) only able to be harmed by typed damage — acid, cold, fire, force, etc. — the whole list from the PH. This will still only do ½ unless you have something like the Inescapable Force feat.

Is this crazy-talk? I know it makes it more important for melee-types to have magic weapons that can do energy damage, but I think I'm okay with that. (I can make sure they're available-enough to my players to help balance that.)

I'd be careful with that. If you make the enemies more powerful, but then buff the PCs enough that it doesn't matter, a slight change to flavor can easily become a large change in power once the fight is over. It could turn out a few ways:

1) The new immunity granted to insubstansial creatures causes something to fall through the cracks and the party suffers for it somehow. Depending on the players they may feel like they've been screwed over by an unfair house rule.

2) The new immunity works out great, but you don't give everyone a way around it. Someone sits around getting slapped by ghosts while the rest of the party fights. They'll almost certainly feel like they were punished by your house rule.

3) Everything balanced out perfectly. The party's new gear makes sure that the new immunity applies so rarely that it's fun without being frustrating. They had a cool fight, and got some new toys.

It seems like #3 is going to require a bit more work than its worth, since all it does is give you the same outcome (party beats monsters) but a) increases their power by giving them new magic items, b) temporarily increases their power with cliche weapons that only last long enough to fight Enemy X, or c) slows down their future magic finds because they now have a bunch of energy weapons.

If you've got someone that wants a flaming sword or thundering bow, that's cool. Add a vulnerability of some sort so they get a chance to shine. I obviously don't know your group, and I'm probably a bit biased because I've had several fun fights with insubstantial creatures, but I just don't see the point in creating more work for yourself so that you can arrive at the same end point, especially when there's risk involved.

 

[mattdm]

"Radiant" I'm assuming?

Help me out: Why would fire, cold, lightning, etc cancel the insubstantial state? Be creative.

How about necrotic?

Necrotic is actually one of the easier ones, at least for ghost-like beings — the shadow substance meshes with the insubstantial form, temporarily giving it solidity. At just that moment, your ally strikes....

 

[tanj]

Why would fire, cold, lightning, etc cancel the insubstantial state?

Fire could make the creature have difficulty controlling its form unless it partially solidified.
Cold could freeze it and make it more solid.
If the creature was really comprised of many tiny parts lightning damage could cause it to clump together.
Poison could cause a creature to be weakened and not be able to maintain its insubstantial form.
Thunder could disrupt the creature's coordination.
Psychic could confuse the creature.
Acid could damage a talisman that granted insubstantial.

 

[Keenath]

I agree that Incorporeal is kind of boring.

As I understand it, bonus damage from vulnerabilities are not halved, so that makes finding and exploiting an incorporeal's vulnerabilities more important.

However, I really do like the idea of a creature that's only occasionally incorporeal, as a sort of defensive measure. That could work really well for ghosts and things where you have to wait for it to materialize before you strike.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

A maybe more interesting way of doing insubstantial (which would require adjusting monster stats) is to run it this way:

Insubstantial: an insubstantial opponent can evade attacks by letting the attack phase through it. A creature that becomes insubstantial gains a +5 bonus to all defenses, and is unaffected by any harmful ability that does not make a successful attack roll against the creature (this includes abilities that do not require a hit roll).