Inteligent Vehilces/Self piloting vehilces.

[BlackJaw]

good.

 

[Wyvern]

Vessels and Vehicles

This is how I've been using the terms "vessel" and "vehicle" in the chapters I've written:

A vessel is any creature or object capable of carrying passengers.

A vehicle is a non-magical, "man-made" vessel. Unlike constructs, vehicles are subject to critical hits, but they're immune to all other things that constructs are immune to.

This means that griffins, flying golems, winged skeletons, elven plant-ships and flying carpets are ALL vessels, but NONE of them are vehicles.

Suggested implications of these definitions:

A vehicle is constructed using the rules in Chapter 4. Other types of vessels can also carry vehicle components, limited by their size. Constructs, plants, undead or aberrations created specifically for use as vessels can be designed using the construction rules, modified by type.

A vehicle does not have a Dex score. It may or may not have an Int score. If it has an Int score, it can pilot itself. It uses its Int modifier instead of its Dex modifier for Reflex saves, AC, initiative, and Pilot checks. Its BAB and base saves are determined by hit dice. (A vehicle without an Int score has no BAB.) A vehicle with an Int score can also gain feats, skills, and class levels (usually in Expert or Pilot).

A vessel (any type) that's controlled by a pilot other than itself uses the pilot's Reflex save and applies the pilot's Dex bonus to AC and initiative. The handling modifier applies to all three.

A vessel that has no pilot automatically fails its Reflex saves and is considered flat-footed. A vessel must have either a Dex score or an Int score in order to pilot itself.

Vessel weapons are controlled by the operator and use the operator's BAB, modified by the weapon's accuracy modifier and the size modifier*. A vessel that has an Int score can operate remote-controlled weapons using its own BAB.

*Question: Should we use the vessel's size modifier or the weapon's? I vote for the latter, for the following reason: it doesn't make sense that a cannon would be less accurate when it's on a bigger ship, but it *does* make sense that a cannon would be less accurate than a rifle (ignoring range penalties).

Now, if you disagree with any part of this, that's fine with me (as long as you let me know, so I can make sure we're not contradicting each other). But I think the basic definitions I gave up top simplify things considerably and save us from having to worry about type modifiers and templates.

Wyvern

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Vessels and Vehicles

A vessel is any creature or object capable of carrying passengers.

Agreed.

A vehicle is a non-magical, "man-made" vessel. Unlike constructs, vehicles are subject to critical hits, but they're immune to all other things that constructs are immune to.

Vehicles might very well be magical.

The defining characteristics of a vehicle are:

No Dexterity -- incapable of movement.
Subject to critical hits.
Able to carry vessel components.
Unable to run or double move.

This means that griffins, flying golems, winged skeletons, elven plant-ships and flying carpets are ALL vessels, but NONE of them are vehicles.

Wrong. A flying carpet and an elven plant-ship are vehicles.

A vehicle does not have a Dex score. It may or may not have an Int score. If it has an Int score, it can pilot itself.

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether or not anything can maneuver itself. If an object or creature possesses the means to move itself or change its own position, it has a Dexterity score. Vehicles cannot do this, by definition. If a vessel can fly itself, it is a creature, not a vehicle.

It uses its Int modifier instead of its Dex modifier for Reflex saves, AC, initiative, and Pilot checks.

No. It fails every Reflex Save it ever makes (though its pilot can make Reflex Saves modified by its Handling Modifier), it gets specific bonuses to its AC based on its pilot, it rolls initiative normally and cannot make Piloting skill checks, nor indeed any skill checks involving Dexterity.

Its BAB and base saves are determined by hit dice.

Or possibly class levels, if it possesses any.

A vehicle with an Int score can also gain feats, skills, and class levels (usually in Expert or Pilot).

Yes.

A vessel (any type) that's controlled by a pilot other than itself uses the pilot's Reflex save and applies the pilot's Dex bonus to AC and initiative. The handling modifier applies to all three.

If it's controlled by a pilot it is a vehicle. But yes, this is correct for vehicles.

A vessel must have either a Dex score or an Int score in order to pilot itself.

See above -- a vessel without a Dexterity cannot pilot itself.

Vessel weapons are controlled by the operator and use the operator's BAB, modified by the weapon's accuracy modifier and the size modifier*. A vessel that has an Int score can operate remote-controlled weapons using its own BAB.

Right. About size modifiers: The issue is the manner in which the weapon is mounted. So perhaps vessel weapons have a quality, "Mount" or "Static" -- Static weapons use the vessel's size modifiers while Mount weapons use the weapon's size modifiers.

After all, a dragon's claws and breath weapon suffer from its size modifier, so why not vessel weapons that haven't been specially designed?

But I think the basic definitions I gave up top simplify things considerably and save us from having to worry about type modifiers and templates.

Agreed. I actually think it's simpler than even you proposed. Vessel is anything folks ride in. A vehicle is a type modifier that gets used to create vehicles using creature statistics.

So a 747 is a Colossal Construct (Vehicle). This tells us right away that it is subject to critical hits, immune to mind-influencing affects, can't run or take a double move and has no Dexterity score.
A griffin is a Large Beast. Unchanged from the Monster Manual entry, except that we add a +8 racial bonus to Piloting skill checks and a Turn Modifier based on its Maneuverability class.

I think it's pretty simple.

EDIT: Formatting.

 

[Wyvern]

Re: Re: Vessels and Vehicles

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether or not anything can maneuver itself. If an object or creature possesses the means to move itself or change its own position, it has a Dexterity score. Vehicles cannot do this, by definition. If a vessel can fly itself, it is a creature, not a vehicle.

The only problem I have with this is: what about a spaceship with an AI control system and autopilot? Are you saying that it can't fly on its own? Or that it's not a vehicle?

No. It fails every Reflex Save it ever makes (though its pilot can make Reflex Saves modified by its Handling Modifier), it gets specific bonuses to its AC based on its pilot, it rolls initiative normally and cannot make Piloting skill checks, nor indeed any skill checks involving Dexterity.

So does it apply its Int modifier to initiative as described in the Monster Manual?

Right. About size modifiers: The issue is the manner in which the weapon is mounted. So perhaps vessel weapons have a quality, "Mount" or "Static" -- Static weapons use the vessel's size modifiers while Mount weapons use the weapon's size modifiers.

What criteria are you using to make that distinction?

After all, a dragon's claws and breath weapon suffer from its size modifier, so why not vessel weapons that haven't been specially designed?

I thought you'd decided that natural weapons don't count as vessel weapons. Given that distinction, I don't think we need to further complicate things by making a distinction between "static" and "mount" weapons. I propose that vessel weapons (those that require a crew to operate) use the weapon's size modifier, and natural weapons (those under the control of the vessel itself) use the vessel's size modifier.

The reason dragons suffer size modifiers to their attacks is more for game balance than anything else, but I don't think that we have to apply the rule to vessels to preserve balance. The balance is still there, it's just transferred to the weapon -- larger weapons will generally do more damage, but be less accurate.

Logicwise, I don't see that it makes any more sense for a cannon to gain a to-hit bonus from being mounted on a smaller vessel than from being manned by halflings. If there's a flaw in my reasoning, please point it out to me.

Wyvern

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: Vessels and Vehicles

The only problem I have with this is: what about a spaceship with an AI control system and autopilot? Are you saying that it can't fly on its own? Or that it's not a vehicle?

I was saying it's a creature but I think I have a better idea.

It works like this: there's a Vessel Component called AI, or Brainy Autopilot, or whatever. This component's description states:

A vehicle with this component receives a Dexterity score (include a table of varying Dexterity scores according to the power of the component -- better AIs provide higher Dexerity). It can take steer a vessel actions to pilot itself, but in all other ways it retains its Vehicle qualities. It cannot take a run or a double move action, it still suffers damage effects as described in Combat: Damage and Destruction, and it still retains its number of Vessel Component slots.

So does it apply its Int modifier to initiative as described in the Monster Manual?

Yes.

What criteria are you using to make that distinction?

None. I just made it up. Here's the problem I'm hoping to solve -- that vessels might have "natural weapons", that is, weapons that are affected by the size of the vessel (battering rams, torpedo tubes (unguided torpedos, we're talking) and so on). Currently we have no way to create or define these and logically they ought to take up slots and so should be defined as Vessel Components.

This means we need to define two types of weapons in Vessel Components: those that use the vessel's size modifier and those that do not. I suggest the "Mount" and "Static" descriptors to distinguish between them.

I thought you'd decided that natural weapons don't count as vessel weapons. Given that distinction, I don't think we need to further complicate things by making a distinction between "static" and "mount" weapons. I propose that vessel weapons (those that require a crew to operate) use the weapon's size modifier, and natural weapons (those under the control of the vessel itself) use the vessel's size modifier.

Right, sure. But we still need a way to add "natural weapons" to a vehicle, which unless we either add them to Vessel Components (in which case we need to distinguish them from vessel weapons) or we come up with some whole new mechanic (which I am loth to do), we cannot do.

Logicwise, I don't see that it makes any more sense for a cannon to gain a to-hit bonus from being mounted on a smaller vessel than from being manned by halflings. If there's a flaw in my reasoning, please point it out to me.

There's no flaw in your reasoning. I TOTALLY agree with your example. I just think that there are some weapons, that, unlike a cannon which can be aimed independently of the vessel it's mounted on, are more or less accurate depending on the size of the vessel they're on. Like, for example, a battering ram. Or big blades on the wings.

We need some way to add these both these types of weapons to vehicles. I suggest we use the Vessel Component mechanic, and simply create a descriptor that distinguishes between the two.

 

[BlackJaw]

I was saying it's a creature but I think I have a better idea.

It works like this: there's a Vessel Component called AI, or Brainy Autopilot, or whatever. This component's description states:

A vehicle with this component receives a Dexterity score (include a table of varying Dexterity scores according to the power of the component -- better AIs provide higher Dexerity). It can take steer a vessel actions to pilot itself, but in all other ways it retains its Vehicle qualities. It cannot take a run or a double move action, it still suffers damage effects as described in Combat: Damage and Destruction, and it still retains its number of Vessel Component slots.

That's what I was talking about before: but then we have vehicles with Dex scores which up till now you've been very very much againts.

I have a slight variation on that idea: The autopilot coponent doesn't give the vehicle a dex score (then we got ugly issues about creatures vs vehicles etc) instead the autopilot has a Dex score. Its technicaly a seperate enity... kinda like a monster or character in its own right. Its got its own stats, and its a removable component. if you character sell off their old ship and buy a new one they can bring their firendly AI core with nice piloting score along with them and stick it in the new ship. its a creature with no movement score, although it does have a Dex, and piloting skill ranks (and maybe other skills as needed) AND you could even have it gain levels (in piloting no less). because it is seperate from the ship you could write it up as a creature, and maybe even let spellcaster use them as familiars, etc, people with the Leadership feat use them as cohorts, etc.

That way the vehicle itself still has no Dex, etc, but we can still have self piloting inteligent vehilces and the works because we simply seperate the inteligence into a component.

AS FOR WEAPONS:
The reason why we orginaly put weapons as using the vehicle size was 1) it matches the d20 system. weapons are affected by size 2) the weapons are attached to the vehicle. The idea here is that unless otherwise mentioned, the weapons is attached directly to the vehicle and is therefore limited in use. Think of a fighter plane (WWII) its guns were built into the wing. Now for vehicle with larger battle ship style turrets (anit aircraft guns for example) then the size isn't so important. thsoe weapons would be installed with an extra component that makes them use the gunner's size modifier instead of the vehicle's size modifier.

Let me ask you this quesiton: does a hafling in a WW II style fighter get his size modifier to attacks while sitting in the pilot seat firing a gun fixed to his wings? Ok, but does a similar gun that swings around to fire based on the guy strapped into have to use the size modifier of the battleship/etc its connected to? Now here is the important part: did it take special equipment to seperate these two examples out? YES: the guns on the battle ship used turrets while the guns on the fighter craft were simply built in. SO when I made my first draft of the vehilce construction rules I made a special turret (Point Defense I think I called it).

Now this is seperate from just any gun on a turret. the larger guns on a battleship maybe be able to swing around to fire in multipule fire arcs, but they don't have much chance of hitting a speed boat. (thus the Turret component allows you to fire in any fire arc, but still with the vehicle's size modifier)

essentialy, guns go in basiclay unless you spend more money and space on them. Its why you send smaller craft at larger ones in most sci-fi games/movies. gameplaywise this matches the D20 system default: most weapons are on an equal feild againts vehicles of the same size (remember that the penalty to attack is also an armor class penalty!) but agiants larger targets they hit eaiser, and agaitns smaller targets they have a harder time hitting.

 

[barsoomcore]

The autopilot coponent doesn't give the vehicle a dex score (then we got ugly issues about creatures vs vehicles etc) instead the autopilot has a Dex score. Its technicaly a seperate enity... kinda like a monster or character in its own right. Its got its own stats, and its a removable component.

Perfect. I love this idea. So there's a vessel component that is, basically, a built-in pilot.

Cool.