Agreed.Wyvern said:A vessel is any creature or object capable of carrying passengers.
Vehicles might very well be magical.A vehicle is a non-magical, "man-made" vessel. Unlike constructs, vehicles are subject to critical hits, but they're immune to all other things that constructs are immune to.
Wrong. A flying carpet and an elven plant-ship are vehicles.This means that griffins, flying golems, winged skeletons, elven plant-ships and flying carpets are ALL vessels, but NONE of them are vehicles.
Intelligence has nothing to do with whether or not anything can maneuver itself. If an object or creature possesses the means to move itself or change its own position, it has a Dexterity score. Vehicles cannot do this, by definition. If a vessel can fly itself, it is a creature, not a vehicle.A vehicle does not have a Dex score. It may or may not have an Int score. If it has an Int score, it can pilot itself.
No. It fails every Reflex Save it ever makes (though its pilot can make Reflex Saves modified by its Handling Modifier), it gets specific bonuses to its AC based on its pilot, it rolls initiative normally and cannot make Piloting skill checks, nor indeed any skill checks involving Dexterity.It uses its Int modifier instead of its Dex modifier for Reflex saves, AC, initiative, and Pilot checks.
Or possibly class levels, if it possesses any.Its BAB and base saves are determined by hit dice.
Yes.A vehicle with an Int score can also gain feats, skills, and class levels (usually in Expert or Pilot).
If it's controlled by a pilot it is a vehicle. But yes, this is correct for vehicles.A vessel (any type) that's controlled by a pilot other than itself uses the pilot's Reflex save and applies the pilot's Dex bonus to AC and initiative. The handling modifier applies to all three.
See above -- a vessel without a Dexterity cannot pilot itself.A vessel must have either a Dex score or an Int score in order to pilot itself.
Right. About size modifiers: The issue is the manner in which the weapon is mounted. So perhaps vessel weapons have a quality, "Mount" or "Static" -- Static weapons use the vessel's size modifiers while Mount weapons use the weapon's size modifiers.Vessel weapons are controlled by the operator and use the operator's BAB, modified by the weapon's accuracy modifier and the size modifier*. A vessel that has an Int score can operate remote-controlled weapons using its own BAB.
Agreed. I actually think it's simpler than even you proposed. Vessel is anything folks ride in. A vehicle is a type modifier that gets used to create vehicles using creature statistics.But I think the basic definitions I gave up top simplify things considerably and save us from having to worry about type modifiers and templates.
The only problem I have with this is: what about a spaceship with an AI control system and autopilot? Are you saying that it can't fly on its own? Or that it's not a vehicle?barsoomcore said:Intelligence has nothing to do with whether or not anything can maneuver itself. If an object or creature possesses the means to move itself or change its own position, it has a Dexterity score. Vehicles cannot do this, by definition. If a vessel can fly itself, it is a creature, not a vehicle.
So does it apply its Int modifier to initiative as described in the Monster Manual?No. It fails every Reflex Save it ever makes (though its pilot can make Reflex Saves modified by its Handling Modifier), it gets specific bonuses to its AC based on its pilot, it rolls initiative normally and cannot make Piloting skill checks, nor indeed any skill checks involving Dexterity.
What criteria are you using to make that distinction?Right. About size modifiers: The issue is the manner in which the weapon is mounted. So perhaps vessel weapons have a quality, "Mount" or "Static" -- Static weapons use the vessel's size modifiers while Mount weapons use the weapon's size modifiers.
I thought you'd decided that natural weapons don't count as vessel weapons. Given that distinction, I don't think we need to further complicate things by making a distinction between "static" and "mount" weapons. I propose that vessel weapons (those that require a crew to operate) use the weapon's size modifier, and natural weapons (those under the control of the vessel itself) use the vessel's size modifier.After all, a dragon's claws and breath weapon suffer from its size modifier, so why not vessel weapons that haven't been specially designed?
I was saying it's a creature but I think I have a better idea.Wyvern said:The only problem I have with this is: what about a spaceship with an AI control system and autopilot? Are you saying that it can't fly on its own? Or that it's not a vehicle?
Yes.So does it apply its Int modifier to initiative as described in the Monster Manual?
None. I just made it up. Here's the problem I'm hoping to solve -- that vessels might have "natural weapons", that is, weapons that are affected by the size of the vessel (battering rams, torpedo tubes (unguided torpedos, we're talking) and so on). Currently we have no way to create or define these and logically they ought to take up slots and so should be defined as Vessel Components.What criteria are you using to make that distinction?
Right, sure. But we still need a way to add "natural weapons" to a vehicle, which unless we either add them to Vessel Components (in which case we need to distinguish them from vessel weapons) or we come up with some whole new mechanic (which I am loth to do), we cannot do.I thought you'd decided that natural weapons don't count as vessel weapons. Given that distinction, I don't think we need to further complicate things by making a distinction between "static" and "mount" weapons. I propose that vessel weapons (those that require a crew to operate) use the weapon's size modifier, and natural weapons (those under the control of the vessel itself) use the vessel's size modifier.
There's no flaw in your reasoning. I TOTALLY agree with your example. I just think that there are some weapons, that, unlike a cannon which can be aimed independently of the vessel it's mounted on, are more or less accurate depending on the size of the vessel they're on. Like, for example, a battering ram. Or big blades on the wings.Logicwise, I don't see that it makes any more sense for a cannon to gain a to-hit bonus from being mounted on a smaller vessel than from being manned by halflings. If there's a flaw in my reasoning, please point it out to me.
That's what I was talking about before: but then we have vehicles with Dex scores which up till now you've been very very much againts.I was saying it's a creature but I think I have a better idea.
It works like this: there's a Vessel Component called AI, or Brainy Autopilot, or whatever. This component's description states:
A vehicle with this component receives a Dexterity score (include a table of varying Dexterity scores according to the power of the component -- better AIs provide higher Dexerity). It can take steer a vessel actions to pilot itself, but in all other ways it retains its Vehicle qualities. It cannot take a run or a double move action, it still suffers damage effects as described in Combat: Damage and Destruction, and it still retains its number of Vessel Component slots.
Perfect. I love this idea. So there's a vessel component that is, basically, a built-in pilot.BlackJaw said:The autopilot coponent doesn't give the vehicle a dex score (then we got ugly issues about creatures vs vehicles etc) instead the autopilot has a Dex score. Its technicaly a seperate enity... kinda like a monster or character in its own right. Its got its own stats, and its a removable component.