Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

[hexgrid]

Here's a simple test:

Name a "rules lite" RPG that remained in print and actively supported by a publisher for more than 5 years.

I think only Amber (a completely genius design, BTW) meets this criteria.

In the current marketplace, I can't think of a single rules light game that's thriving. What I think is interesting, and this ties in Ryan's point that people *want* rules lite gaming to succeed, is that I suspect a lot of people think a game is rules lite when it's not.

What's even more interesting is that if you look at the industry over the past 30+ years, only rules heavy games have found and sustained audiences. Amber is perhaps the only exception I can think of (and again, that's a genius design).

Except that the issue raised by the original quote wasn't "Do rules light rpgs sell better than rules heavy rpg?"

That isn't much of an issue to the actual players of the games in question.

 

[scadgrad]

Here's a simple test:

Name a "rules lite" RPG that remained in print and actively supported by a publisher for more than 5 years....


...In the current marketplace, I can't think of a single rules light game that's thriving. What I think is interesting, and this ties in Ryan's point that people *want* rules lite gaming to succeed, is that I suspect a lot of people think a game is rules lite when it's not.

Not sure what benchmark we're using as "rule-lite," but I'd say BD&D hung around for quite a while. And perhaps it's just me, but I find Call of Cthulu to be rules-lite, or at least compared to 3.X, Rolemaster, HERO, etc. Certainly CoC's combat system is fairly simple or at least in my eye it is. Maybe you're on to something w/ this train of thought concerning the "perception of what is rules lite."

I'd certainly be interested to read your speculation as to why we "want rules lite gaming to succeed."

 

[Umbran]

Hmmm... I utterly disagree both with Mr. Dancey and with Mike Mearls original post.

Both Dancey and Mearls seem to think that in a perfect world everybody would play some variant of D20 and every game publishers should just tweak D20 instead of having its own system...

Look again, for a moment, and Mearls' original post - it isn't about lite/heavy at all. It is about business - what companies are succeeding or failing. His statements weren't about what sort of rules are best, but simply about who is strong in the market. Do you dispute his claims?

I've had the luck to play a non-d20 game, rules light, run by Mearls. I saw no sign of the bias you attribute to him.

 

[buzz]

I find it incredibly interesting that people are mentioning games like AD&D1e, OD&D, and C&C in the same breath as "lite".

 

[Psion]

Near as I can figure, he means that game designers are responsible for balance and realism, and all that stuff needs to be figured out ahead of time by experts. Which I think is bunk.

Perhaps. And having lived through the era of Dragon articles proclaiming that only Gygax could tell you what would work in your game, I could certainly agree.

If that was the assertion.

That said, that's not the vibe I get from that particular statement. Try scratching out "by experts", and then not only does your statement more closely resemble his, but it becomes something I agree with. Games do benefit from forethought.

 

[Voadam]

Here's a simple test:

Name a "rules lite" RPG that remained in print and actively supported by a publisher for more than 5 years.

I think only Amber (a completely genius design, BTW) meets this criteria.

In the current marketplace, I can't think of a single rules light game that's thriving. What I think is interesting, and this ties in Ryan's point that people *want* rules lite gaming to succeed, is that I suspect a lot of people think a game is rules lite when it's not.

What's even more interesting is that if you look at the industry over the past 30+ years, only rules heavy games have found and sustained audiences. Amber is perhaps the only exception I can think of (and again, that's a genius design).

Doesn't basic set D&D qualify? Its not until you hit companion and master level rules that weapon mastery and variant class options got introduced. The no skills aspect appeals to me as a rules lite game. And it had plenty of support through modules as I remember it (B1-9).

 

[scadgrad]

I find it incredibly interesting that people are mentioning games like AD&D1e, OD&D, and C&C in the same breath as "lite".

Well Buzz, do enlighten the Great Unwashed. If you're asserting that C&C is rules heavy for instance, what would you call 3.X and Rolemaster?

 

[buzz]

The question is, what is "rules-lite" and what is "rules-insufficient"?

I thnk this is an important point. I'd be curious to see which games were used in Dancey's (or what company he worked for at the time's) test. I think that an RPG can be fairly "lite" while still providing more guidance than just GM fiat. Eden's Buffy does a pretty good job of this.

 

[Psion]

Well Buzz, do enlighten the Great Unwashed. If you're asserting that C&C is rules heavy for instance, what would you call 3.X and Rolemaster?

False dichotomy. Just because those aren't qualifiably light compared to the likes of true rules light games like Over The Edge, doesn't mean he was calling them rules heavy.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Doesn't basic set D&D qualify? Its not until you hit companion and master level rules that weapon mastery and variant class options got introduced. The no skills aspect appeals to me as a rules lite game. And it had plenty of support through modules as I remember it (B1-9).

One might say that the basic and expert sets were supported in part by AD&D and the companion/master sets. You can play Keep on the Borderlands using 1e and even 2e rules. The PCs will clean the monster's clocks with weapon specialization, but it's so easy to convert that most people wouldn't bother converting it in the first place.

Also, what year did the basic set with the Elmore cover come out? I'd argue that was the last incarnation of Basic.

edit: struck out above line as it is the 7th most stupid thing I've seen today.