Interrupting a spell impossible w/Core rules?

[DrSpunj]

Wow!

Instead of a partial charge, why not ready a partial run to close on the mage and then get an AoO when he casts. In the above examples the mage would move 30' while the heavy fighter would move 40'.

Until you mentioned it I never knew you could Partial Run! That's cool!

Really, it makes sense that you could, but I've never thought of it before. Humpf. Well, assuming the mage didn't do the smart thing and duck around an obstacle (as I've said before and Thanee pointed out very eloquently above) that would work nicely.

Though that brings up a question. If a heavily armored fighter only gets to run his base speed x3, how far does he go with a Partial run? Table 8-3 in the PHB on pg 127 says x2 which makes sense for a lightly or medium-armored PC, but it should be something like x1.5 for someone heavily armored. Oh well, minor point. Great idea, though. Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[ogre]

assuming the mage didn't do the smart thing and duck around an obstacle (as I've said before and Thanee pointed out very eloquently above) that would work nicely.

This shouldn't even matter, if your thinking the run has to be in a straight line, like a charge. I don't think a run does.

Glad to be of help.

edit:
oh, and to answer the total movement question, I think your solution is good. 1.5x. heh, how nice it still works. 30' total at a 20' movement rate

 

[Xarlen]

You can hit someone with a spiked chain who's within range of 5'. There's a few ranged weapons that aren't Just 10', no 5' attack.

 

[Varius]

If you really want to hit him that badly with a melee weapon, throw it at him!

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

If your DM really wants to make it more difficult for a beset mage to cast, then make a house rule instead to require concentration checks for all damage taken on the mages initiative count. That way the AoO triggered from attempting to move and then cast is just as effective as one made while he starts casting right next to you. Less impact on the rules as a whole and doesn't totally remove the effectiveness of readied actions either.

You could still ready an action to charge the mage when he attempts to cast, then hit him as he starts to move away while casting, and follow him to hit him again when he stops to cast and damage from both hits is going to make completing that spell very difficult. Remember that a round is only 6 seconds long, so getting hurt while casting or a couple of seconds before hand is still going to make it very difficult to concentrate.

Or alternatively, if that seems to harsh then only consider half of the damage taken on the same initiative count instead of while actually casting, like with continuous damage. e.g. Mage starts to back away from the guy with a sword threatening him, but is concentration on the spell he is prepare to cast so the swordsman lashes out at the retreating mage (hitting him for 10 points of damage). He then quickly follows the mage, and catches up as the mage is casting his spell and stabs him again for another 7 points of damage. To complete his magic missile spell the mage is going to have to make a concentration check against 10 + 1 (spell level) + 5 (from earlier hit) + 7 (from hit before completeing spell) = DC 23.

 

[ouini]

ouini said

The problem was that you can -never- prevent a spellcaster from casting by using a plain old melee weapon, no matter how determined you are to do so, unless you specialize with feats. This just bugged the hell out of him.

A few people, including Caliban, pointed out

This just wrong. You mean someone with a speed of 20 can never do this, if the spellcaster has room to run.

Which is absolutely correct. The 'fix' he implemented was an odd one, because it essentially allowed fighters who could already ready to follow and hit a mage, follow and hit them after they had already attacked them.

The vast majority of fighter-types, though (Dwarves or Med-to-Hvy armored fighter / ranger / paladins) -still- suffer the problem of the mage running away. I'd argue his 'fix' hasn't really helped fighters bear down on a mage with a melee weapon to interrupt casting.

Some of you pointed out that there are special weapons, or magic items, or special circumstances where the fighter can gain a real advantage. But again, -he feels- a mage should be hindered -somehow- by a person (especially a burly fighter) who is in melee with them. He feels the weapon used shouldn't matter much if that person is simply trying to keep that mage from casting (probably by bashing and threatening to bash a wizard the moment they seem to be trying to cast).

ogre brought up:

Instead of a partial charge, why not ready a partial run to close on the mage and then get an AoO...

That's funny (strange, not ha-ha), because I used to remember that rule. But ironically before I tried it the first time, our GM (same guy) had already started using a house rule that you could only run after hustling in a straight line for a round. This put the kybosh on partial runs in general, so I stopped using, and simply forgot, the rule.

 

[DrSpunj]

If your DM really wants to make it more difficult for a beset mage to cast, then make a house rule instead to require concentration checks for all damage taken on the mages initiative count. That way the AoO triggered from attempting to move and then cast is just as effective as one made while he starts casting right next to you. Less impact on the rules as a whole and doesn't totally remove the effectiveness of readied actions either.

This is exactly the house rule that we came up with Wednesday night (we called it Lingering Blow) and what I proposed in my second post in this thread. Glad to see someone else thinks it's reasonable.

Or alternatively, if that seems to harsh then only consider half of the damage taken on the same initiative count instead of while actually casting, like with continuous damage. e.g. Mage starts to back away from the guy with a sword threatening him, but is concentration on the spell he is prepare to cast so the swordsman lashes out at the retreating mage (hitting him for 10 points of damage). He then quickly follows the mage, and catches up as the mage is casting his spell and stabs him again for another 7 points of damage. To complete his magic missile spell the mage is going to have to make a concentration check against 10 + 1 (spell level) + 5 (from earlier hit) + 7 (from hit before completeing spell) = DC 23.

I think we'll start (if this player/DM buys the change in the first place) with just the Lingering Blow house rule above. I'll admit it may need to be tweaked to this "continuous damage" version if it seems like too much, but I don't think that'll be the case. Thanks for the ideas/analysis, Cull!

And ogre! Run has to be in a straight line (PHB, pg 127) so I would assume a Partial Run also has to be in a straight line, it's just the distance that's affected by using a partial action instead of a full-round action.

 

[Zog]

Do any of you actually play Wizards?

Give the poor wizards a break folks!

All Wizards and sorcerers can do is cast spells. Don't take away their one ability but making it nigh impossible for them to safely cast a spell. Its like saying that everytime a fighter attacks, they have a chance to drop their sword. I have to weigh in here and say - nothing is broken! Yes, it is hard to stop wizards from casting spells, GOOD! They fire off their few spells, and then are cut down by the party. Most of the time in the games I'm in, it simply isn't worth it try and disrupt a spellcaster - just hit them! A few solid hits and they are dead. Heck, one or two solid hits at level 1-3 and they are dead.

When I was playing a sorcerer, I was scared as heck of anyone getting close to me. The DM had bad guys move around my companions (taking AOO) just to close and hit me. I was trying everything to keep my distance, and NEVER provoke an AOO. You simply do not have the hitpoints. At most levels, fighting average monsters of said level, two or three hits is the most you can take. I had good hit points (51 at level 12) and was still in mortal danger after one or two hits.

Yes, even with counterspelling it is hard to shut down a spellcaster. And again, I say GOOD! As a player, it really sucks when you fail a concentrate check or get counterspelled. Your contribution to the party for the round was a bust. AND you have lost one of your few precious spells. A fighter can miss and miss and miss, and geez, bad luck. If the spellcaster is interupted three times in a row, they are either dead, or running low on useful spells and Out of the Fight.

And when facing enemy spellcasters - your options are limited. Even one on one, your best bet is to hit them hard and drop them fast, and not waste time with trying to interupt. If for some reason you have nothing better to do, sure, ready an attack or partial charge/attack or 5' move an attack or grapple or trip. Otherwise, hit 'em hard and hope you make your save!

Just my two cents - had to toss in a counter arguement.

 

[Uller]

The problem with this whole exercise is that it assumes conditions favorable to the mage: A (nearly) limitless battlefield with a few obstacles to hide behind and only two combatants, and a mage and fighter with equal base speeds.

How often is this the case in practice? Most battles in our games are in enclosed areas, where movement is difficult, with multiple combatants(usually 4-10+ per side). A caster is rarely beset by just one attacker.

Also consider the consequences of a disrupted spell. A wizard surrounded by enemies casts his best spell. It's his one and only chance to survive. If he is disrupted, his turn is lost, his spell is gone and his chances of survival are slim. Should it be _easy_ to to disrupt him? I think not. Non-casting characters don't have abilities that, once disrupted are gone, especially not their primary ones.

 

[Greatwyrm]

I kinda have to agree with Zog, it should be difficult to interrupt spells. Difficult, but not impossible.

Here are a couple of options I haven't seen yet. Possibly because they do more to hinder spellcasting than directly interrupt it. Both are available to your run-of-the-mill first level fighter.

1. Alchemist's Fire. Continouous (sp?) damage makes for some nasty concentration checks, even if the damage isn't all that high.

2. Nets. Ranged touch attack. Hard to get out of for a Wiz/Sor. Automatic DC15 concentration check to cast spells in one. I can't remember if it's Exotic or not, but heck, it's only 4 points on a ranged touch.