Into The Fire!--Contrasting Analysis of 4E and 3.5E

[ashockney]

Shark!

Damn, it's good to see you.

Likes:
Easy DM'ing - prep time in 1-4 hours per game
Superior NPC Building Rules - limited prep, easy to adapt on the fly
Skill Challenges - I'm more excited about this mechanic than any I've seen in a game since THACO became Attack Bonus
Unified Power Scale - superior PC balance using the same power system
Warlock, Dragonborn, Warlord, Eladrin, Tiefling - cool new PC options
Treasure economics - much simpler, much smoother
Actions/Hit Points/Healing Mechanics - smoother, easier, more consistently interesting combats

Dislikes:
Missing information - druids, bards, barbarians, etc.
Errata - lots of stuff in errata already, concerns me about playtesting
Flavor-free - monsters, dieties, magic items, and PC's lack flavor of 3e
Dependence upon minis - I wish this were an optional component, easily removed

For more supporting detail on all of the above, check out my blog.

I look forward to hearing more from you, and seeing you around!

 

[the Jester]

Hey there SHARK!

I loved 3.x; I played it from slightly before it came out to several weeks after 4e came out. I loved every minute of it.

4e improves my experience, as a dm, by making it amazingly easy. I have been running a 4e pickup game through B4, the Lost City, and I've been doing it 100% on the fly; all my notes are on the battlemap, and it's amazingly easy to keep track of everything. I keep track of the damage done to each monster, and keep track of its level & role in my head; and all the math is on page 184 of the DMG (but by now I've done enough monster conversions not to really need the book open). The rest is making up cool powers.

I am also really growing to like how 4e breaks down the levels into 'tiers': heroic at 1-10, paragon at 11-20 and epic at 21-30. And then it gives you an excuse to retire your character: you've reached immortality via your epic destiny. I like this aspect a lot- you can really decide how 'incredible' you want your campaign to be just by keeping it within a given tier. And the retirement/exit of your character is totally worthy. I'm much more sold on it than I had thought I would be.

If 4e has a real weakness, imho, it is that the books read like instruction manuals for a video game rather than the arcane tomes of Gygaxian days of yore. But the game plays much differently than it reads, at least for me, and the gains in play are significant, at least from what I've seen with 4e play so far (1st through 7th level campaigning, plus some one-shots and minor side adventures).

 

[FireLance]

Diseases are rampant, virilent and deadly, and not easily dispelled or cured by standard spells.

I like the way that 4e handles diseases, and I think you might, too.

First of all, each disease has an associated "disease track" which basically divides the disease into various stages which impose increasing penalties on the diseased character.

A character that contracts a disease needs to make Endurance checks after each extended rest to determine whether he gets better, remains the same, or gets worse. If another character attends to the diseased character during this time, he may also make a Heal check and use it in place of the diseased character's Endurance check if it is higher. The DCs to recover from the disease or prevent it from getting worse may vary from disease to disease, and can be set very high to represent a particularly virulent disease.

For example, a disease might have the following disease track:

Weakening Palsy
Level 10 disease
Character recovers <-
Initial stage: The character takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity skill checks and ability checks. <->
The character takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and to all defenses ->
Final stage: The character is weakened (deals half damage).
Endurance: improve DC 25, maintain DC 20, worsen DC 19 or less​

A character who contracts this disease begins at the initial stage and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity skill checks and ability checks. After an extended rest, he makes an Endurance check. If the check result is 25 or more, he recovers. If the check result is 20 to 24, he does not improve, but he does not get worse, either. If the check result is 19 or less, the disease worsens and he takes a penalty of -2 to attack rolls and to all defences in addition to the penalty to skill checks and ability checks.

If the disease worsens further, it reaches its final stage, and the character can no longer make Endurance checks to recover. At this point the only option is the use the cure disease ritual. There are a number of downsides to the ritual. It requires the expenditure of ritual components, which cost money, and success is not guaranteed. The character casting the ritual must make a Heal check with the level of the disease (10 in this case) as a penalty to the check. If the result of the Heal check is 0 or less (quite possible if the character is lower level than the disease or rolls poorly), the diseased character dies.

 

[Henry]

Since Firelance is handling well any contribution I might make to the thread, I just wanted to say that it's good to see you post, SHARK, and hope you stick around a little while. I've always enjoyed hearing your war stories, both on and off the tabletop.

--Henry

 

[mmadsen]

I want to hear cogent, well-thought out analysis and arguments about what is good about 4E--and what's bad, about it too.

(First, let me just say, SHARK! OK, now that that's out of the way...)

I think that 4E has elements you'll like (maybe even love) and elements you won't like (and maybe even hate).

First and foremost, 4E follows an entirely different philosophy from 3E, which had a fairly Rolemaster-like philosophy -- that is, the 3E rules tried to model or simulate the game world, with a nod toward keeping the game fun and balanced. With 4E the designers are clearly aiming to make a fun tactical board game, where each player gets to make interesting choices on each turn of every combat, with a nod toward simulating fantasy combat.

So, as Firelance pointed out, you end up with Fighters able to force their opponents to move. How? By using the power listed on their character sheet. How in the game world? However the player decides.

That might be a total non-issue for you, or it might completely ruin your suspension of disbelief. (I personally love the notion of "martial exploits" making Fighters interesting, but I hate the notion of once-per-day powers with no in-game rationale.)

This philosophical difference shows up in monster stats, too, where you no longer try to derive how a monster got certain stats -- "Hmm, he's a veteran Uruk-hai soldier, so let's say he's a 4th-level Hobgoblin Fighter, wearing, hmm, let's call it a breast plate, and..." Instead, you look at how challenging the encounter should be, and you pick whatever stats seem to fit: "Hmm, the PCs are 4th-level, so lets give these five Uruk-hai these stats..." That might liberate you or drive you crazy.

Also, although the combat rules are quite involved, if only because there are so many powers involved, the game is a bit like old-school D&D, in that anything outside of combat is pretty much up to DM fiat. So you don't allocate precious skill points to "soft" skills, like knowing who the local lords and ladies are, etc. This too can either liberate you or drive you crazy.

 

[Shroomy]

I like the way that 4e handles diseases, and I think you might, too.

First of all, each disease has an associated "disease track" which basically divides the disease into various stages which impose increasing penalties on the diseased character.

A character that contracts a disease needs to make Endurance checks after each extended rest to determine whether he gets better, remains the same, or gets worse. If another character attends to the diseased character during this time, he may also make a Heal check and use it in place of the diseased character's Endurance check if it is higher. The DCs to recover from the disease or prevent it from getting worse may vary from disease to disease, and can be set very high to represent a particularly virulent disease.

For example, a disease might have the following disease track:

Weakening Palsy
Level 10 disease
Character recovers <-
Initial stage: The character takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity skill checks and ability checks. <->
The character takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and to all defenses ->
Final stage: The character is weakened (deals half damage).
Endurance: improve DC 25, maintain DC 20, worsen DC 19 or less​

A character who contracts this disease begins at the initial stage and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity skill checks and ability checks. After an extended rest, he makes an Endurance check. If the check result is 25 or more, he recovers. If the check result is 20 to 24, he does not improve, but he does not get worse, either. If the check result is 19 or less, the disease worsens and he takes a penalty of -2 to attack rolls and to all defences in addition to the penalty to skill checks and ability checks.

If the disease worsens further, it reaches its final stage, and the character can no longer make Endurance checks to recover. At this point the only option is the use the cure disease ritual. There are a number of downsides to the ritual. It requires the expenditure of ritual components, which cost money, and success is not guaranteed. The character casting the ritual must make a Heal check with the level of the disease (10 in this case) as a penalty to the check. If the result of the Heal check is 0 or less (quite possible if the character is lower level than the disease or rolls poorly), the diseased character dies.

I have to say, diseases in 4e can be very scary now. During our last two sessions, which took place in the dank sewers beneath a city state, my poor character became infected by not one, but two diseases (filth fever from a dire rat bite and blinding sickness from the poo). I was seriously sweating the effect of those diseases and dreaded the prospect of taking an extended rest (really, I was trying to encourage people to push on so I could get back to the surface and maybe find a ritual caster who could help me). Luckily, my character was able to shake off the filth fever, but I'm still at the initial stage of blinding sickness (I did get to the second stage though, but our cleric made a pretty good Heal check and brought me back). Still, being down one healing surge kind of sucks.

 

[Ulrick]

Yay! SHARK'S back!

I like 4e better than 3.5e, but I'll play both. I've ran a few sessions of 4e, and I still can't get over that 1st level kobolds and giant rats have like 30+ hp. And ogre minons have 1 hp. It just seemed strange.

 

[Nebulous]

What I Love in 4E: easy DMing!
What I hate in 4E: lack of fluff on MM.

A simple but not innacurate opinion that i share.

To elaborate, I think DMing 4e is a lot of fun. It's pretty intuitive, and monsters are a real blast to run (and make too for that matter). I think minions are a great mechanic and throwing gobs of them at heroes is deeply satisfying. I'm not as much of a fan of the player's side of the screen. The classes have too much similarity with only minor perks, and the magic system has been greatly neutered since 1st/2nd/3rd edition in the name of "balance" (although i never thought the magic system was whacky until 12th level +)

As for the monster manual itself, it does a good job of showing a wide variety of powers that monsters have. I don't think the art or writing is better than 3rd edition, and in some ways it's worse. But that is just my opinion of course, as is everything.

 

[Obryn]

Yay! SHARK'S back!

I like 4e better than 3.5e, but I'll play both. I've ran a few sessions of 4e, and I still can't get over that 1st level kobolds and giant rats have like 30+ hp. And ogre minons have 1 hp. It just seemed strange.

Ogre Minions shouldn't show up until you're fairly badass and can reasonably expect ogres to drop quickly. You might see ogre minions alongside ... I dunno, giants, powerful liches, something along that line. Not alongside kobolds.

As mentioned above, monsters' combat statistics aren't integral to them anymore. They don't necessarily say something fundamental about the creature outside of combat. They simply describe how a creature will perform in combat, this battle. There are no free-roaming ogre minions that are weaker than Kobolds and who die if they step on a caltrop.

It's very zen, and not to everyone's tastes. It's completely effects-based and lets you have huge battles without overwhelming bookkeeping.

It's easily broken, too, if you set out to do so. If you use an inappropriate minion in a battle (say, a Level 27 Legion Devil vs. a 3rd-level party), you get some crazy, broken, insane results. (Solution: Don't use inappropriate minions.)

-O

 

[jdsivyer]

And they're off!

This made me laugh so much I almost cried!