Invisibility and occupying a square

[nameless]

This issue recently came up, and we couldn't find a good way to resolve it. My character was recently made invisible to infiltrate a fortress of Ogre Mages. Some could see invisible, and some couldn't. Long story short, combat started in 10 foot hallway, and my character was detected, but never broke his invisibility. The guys who could see me got laid out by some other PCs, and the Ogres who couldn't see me moved into my square and stopped.

They weren't grappling me, and I wasn't going to contest their entering the area, so the DM ruled that I could tumble out of my square and count it against my next turn's movement. What's the correct rule for this situation?

-nameless

 

[Falex]

Seems logical. Being the fact that your invisibility was maintained, and the visualizing of your character (by a being who can see invis, not by a magical sense) was solely based on a mob, the ogres who could not detect you were running on a whim from those who had spotted you. THe only problem I can see with it is if they were charging you blindly, why would they be after something they could not solely see as opposed to the PC's who happened to be thwacking down the invisibility-spotting ogres? The ruleling is logical, but the mobs logic was not (since they are primarily grouped by dumb ogres and smart ogres). The basic ogre who is not a mage would probably target that which it could see.

 

[nameless]

I guess the whole story didn't really come out. First, they were all ogre mages, just not all of them could see invisible. The other guys had stones with Darkness cast on them, and threw them into the room with the maages. Since they were suddenly enveloped in impenetrable darkness, they fled the room, and one ended up in my square. We were also on a timer for round because there were spells going on a per-round basis at the time (Haste and something else which slips my mind).

Actually, I was happy with the decision, but I was hoping to clear it up in case something similar happens in the future.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I think I would have allowed a tumble check vs. a rather high DC to see if you could stay in the square with them and keep them from noticing you.

I think the rules would be that the ogre bumped into you when it TRIED to move into your square, and so it would know where you are, at least until you moved again.

--Ad-Hoc Spikey

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would probably have considered it to be an involuntary BullRush by the ogremage, allowing you an AoO if you choose to take it (you probably wouldn't have) and then do the str checks - it would probably win and bump you into the square beyond, but it might fail and fall over you.

If I was feeling generious I might allow a Reflex save DC20 to avoid it entirely (I'm not terribly generous )

Cheers

 

[Madfox]

As far as I know the official rules state that you cannot move into a square occupied by an enemy and only through an area of an ally. So I would have treated the situation differently.

When an ogre would be moving through an area occupied by the invisible PC, I would have asked for a reflex save (DC 20 because ogres are rather big). If that roll fails, a concealment check will determine if the ogre by pure chance misses the PC. If both roll fail the ogre bumps into the invisible PC. The moment that happens the ogre can chose to keep moving on or do something about with the knowledge of an invisible opponent. If the PC rolled a 1 on the reflex save I might be inclined to let the ogre walk straight into the PC. Requiring an opposed strength roll to see if the PC falls to the ground. This does assume the PC is aware of the ogre charging him, which probably is the case in any combat.

If the ogre actually stops in the area occupied by the invisible PC, he will definitely know the PC is there. What the ogre will do with that knowledge will be dependend on the situation. If the PC moves he would get an AOO, simply because the ogre knows where the invisible opponent is (in his square) and where it is moving to. Of course, as per the tumble skill rules a tumble check DC 20 could avoid this AOO.

Under no circumstances would I go for the bull's rush unless that was the original intention of the ogre. In the first place would it make things a bit more complicated (e.g. is the bull's rush a free action or a normal standard action?). In the second place, a bull's rush requires deliberate type of movement in my opinion.

Still, it is a situation that demands some thinking and rulings on the fly from the DM (especially when both the ogre and the PC are unaware of each other). It can create some comic situations though.

 

[Ywain]

I think that the DMG guidelines are pretty clear that Skill and Ability checks are used to accomplish something, and Saving Throws are used to avoid something.

So if you are trying to avoid a large creature in close proximity, I think that madfox has the right mechanic. Reflex Save (DC15-20?) to avoid the Ogre Mage, and then throw in the 50% -concealment miss-chance for good measure, if you blow the save.

I don't think that it matters whether the Ogre Mage stops or not. Combat is fluid and odds are you are moving out of the square at the earliest opportunity (i.e. you've probably already started moving away). If you did decide to stay in the same square as the Ogre Mage, then things would get difficult.

In any case I don't think you can take an AoO on an invisible opponent even if you've correctly guessed which square he's in, or even pinpointed him. You just don't see the opportunities when they arise, so you can't react to them. I can't find a rule in the SRD to support this, but it makes sense to me that even an Ogre Mage doesn't have a sixth-sense about things he can't see.

Just my two cents, of course.

 

[Galfridus]

This is a hole in the rules. 3E just says you can't occupy the same square (unless you are grappling or something similiar) and never says what happens if you do. I would give the ogre some sort of modified bull rush or melee touch attack (with miss %) to bump into you.

Hm, stuff like this comes up often enough that I should write a house rule.