Invisibility and Warden Marking

[mpattee]

I had a situation come up in my game Saturday night where I had duegar scouts lined up against a back wall in a room waiting to ambush the part. This brought up two questions.

1. Can a warden mark invisible targets?

2. Can you use the duegar underdark sneak twice in the same round since its just a minor and doesn't state once per round anywhere.

Underdark Sneak (minor; while in dim light or darkness and adjacent to an object or a wall that occupies at least 1 square; at-will)
The duergar scout becomes invisible until the end of its next turn or until after it hits or misses with an attack.

I interpreted the ability to make it so that if they were in dim light and next to a wall the could start a round not being invisible, use the ability as a minor action, make an attack, and then become invisible again using their move action as a minor.

3. Do invisible creatures incur opportunity attacks when they attack form being invisible. Say with a ranged weapon adjacent to an enemy.

Thanks for the help.

 

[DracoSuave]

I had a situation come up in my game Saturday night where I had duegar scouts lined up against a back wall in a room waiting to ambush the part. This brought up two questions.

1. Can a warden mark invisible targets?

Yes. For two reasons.

1) Invisible does not mean that your location is unknown. Without a successful stealth check, your position is still known to all your enemies.

2) Wardens don't care if they know the enemy is there or not. They could mark enemies they don't even know exist.

2. Can you use the duegar underdark sneak twice in the same round since its just a minor and doesn't state once per round anywhere.

Yes.

3. Do invisible creatures incur opportunity attacks when they attack form being invisible. Say with a ranged weapon adjacent to an enemy.

Thanks for the help.

Enemies you cannot see can never trigger opportunity attacks.

 

[CubeKnight]

To expand on 1, let's check Nature's Wrath:

NATURE'S WRATH
Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action. This mark lasts until the end of your next turn.

And now, let's check, say, Blinding Barrage:

Target: Each enemy in blast you can see

Emphasis mine. Hope this clears up things a bit

 

[mpattee]

Cool, thanks guys, that does clear things up a little bit.

Do these scouts still need to make sneak checks even though they're invisible? Maybe thats the piece I was really missing.

Seems like you should never be able to mark what you can't see but I can see the differentiation in the text. Thanks.

Mike

 

[chitzk0i]

Cool, thanks guys, that does clear things up a little bit.

Do these scouts still need to make sneak checks even though they're invisible? Maybe thats the piece I was really missing.

Seems like you should never be able to mark what you can't see but I can see the differentiation in the text. Thanks.

Mike

As contrary as it seems, invisibility does not mean that you are completely unseen. As per theupdates to the stealth rules, you must make a stealth check in order to be completely unseen while invisible. This check can only be made at the end of a move action unless you have some special ability.

 

[DracoSuave]

As contrary as it seems, invisibility does not mean that you are completely unseen. As per theupdates to the stealth rules, you must make a stealth check in order to be completely unseen while invisible. This check can only be made at the end of a move action unless you have some special ability.

True, altho 'unseen' in this instance is the incorrect term; the term you want is called 'hidden' which means 'can't be heard nor seen.' Obviously, you don't count as 'can be seen' for the purposes of effects that require LoS or visual contact, and invisibility obviously includes total concealment, so those scouts above can make their Stealth checks without terrain cover, and even without it they still get combat advantage.

Do these scouts still need to make sneak checks even though they're invisible? Maybe thats the piece I was really missing.

Seems like you should never be able to mark what you can't see but I can see the differentiation in the text. Thanks.

Absolutely they do. But, as a general rule, stuff that can turn invisible tends to have a good Stealth check, so beating passive perception is not a bad thing.

In the case of a Warden, they're not marking based on what they percieve, they're marking based on evoking the spirits of the land around them. Even then, being invisible does not mean you are silent and not leaving footprints or leaving no trace. It merely means you cannot be seen.

Marking has nothing to do with sight, it has everything to do with motivating the marked creature to harass the marker. It could be psychological, magical, mystical, or just plain physical grit, and the flavor is more decided by the character than the ability.

But, regardless of all that, invisible is not the same thing as untouchable. It only means 'cannot be seen.' Blinded characters can mark, attack, and do all their stuff just fine (mind you with an obvious penalty to attacks).

 

[Nytmare]

As contrary as it seems, invisibility does not mean that you are completely unseen. As per theupdates to the stealth rules, you must make a stealth check in order to be completely unseen while invisible. This check can only be made at the end of a move action unless you have some special ability.

Eh, not exactly.

If the duregar are waiting in ambush inside of a room, they became hidden before the warden walked in, because they were outside his line of sight. As long as they (as per "remaining hidden") stay invisible, stay quiet, stay still, and do not attack, they're fine.

Also, and only because I'm afraid that it might be slipping through the cracks, remember that, just because they're marked, the warden doesn't know that they're there.

He marks them, they feel compelled to shoot him in the back of the head, and either do so, or possibly stumble forward or grant everyone combat advantage if they shoot someone else. Or they wait a turn and shoot when the marks wear off they shoot whoever they want without fear of wardenly repercussion.

 

[DracoSuave]

That also reminds me...

...if the hidden enemy triggers your Nature's Fury powers, you still have to guess which square the enemy is in--if you don't know where the enemy is, you have to target by square in order to catch him.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

There are rules on p281 of the PHB for "Targeting what you can't see" that apply to the conversation here. For one, if the enemy is using his minor to turn invisible, standard to attack, and then using his move to turn invisible again, the PC's don't even really need to beat the Stealth check. Essentially, they already know what space the creature ended up in, and only need to take the -5 to attacks from total concealment...so this isn't necessarily the best option for attacking.

 

[DracoSuave]

There are rules on p281 of the PHB for "Targeting what you can't see" that apply to the conversation here. For one, if the enemy is using his minor to turn invisible, standard to attack, and then using his move to turn invisible again, the PC's don't even really need to beat the Stealth check. Essentially, they already know what space the creature ended up in, and only need to take the -5 to attacks from total concealment...so this isn't necessarily the best option for attacking.

Unless the monster has the ability to shift or an action point...


...but you're right, for the most part, attacking the last known square that monster in is probably a really good way to find the monster.

But, if you're a melee attacker, try to move into that square first, which will cause him to become unhidden if he's still there.