Iron Heroes Balance Issues

[lior_shapira]

Last night we played the 2nd session of our Iron Heroes mini-campaign. The group consisted of three 5th level characters: A harrier/executioner, a berserker, and a man-at-arms/armiger. I started them last week on a DCC adventure 'The Scaly God' which is intended for 4th-6th level characters, with groups of about six people.

I know my players, they're no novices and so I wasn't too concerned with their safety, but I did think maybe the adventure would be too tough. Needless to say I converted all the encounters to use Defense instead of AC, marked DR where necessary, changed spellcasting classes to IH variants etc.

The actual play experience was pretty horrible. The trio of 5th level adventurers dished out over 100hp each round, rolling over the monsters without blinking. The berserker used his shout every time they encountered more than a few low level monsters. With the DC for that he simply dispersed all monsters in a 60' radius. Last night the armiger taunted my monsters, giving me DC's of 25-30, which no CR4-6 monster can handle! They also killed two Wyverns without batting an eyelash, killed a CR 9 magical dog (don't ask, its the module not me), and eventually were only put down by the big baddie at the end (dont want to spoil too much).

I thought Iron Heroes was supposed to balanced to D20 challenge levels, I'm not a novice DM and this wasn't the first time I DM'd Iron Heroes, but it was the first time I used a converted module.

Did anyone have similar experiences? do you have any advice? Currently none of us really want to continue playing IH.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I haven't had the opportunity to play it, but from what I've read lots of people treat IH characters as being several levels higher when it comes to selecting opponents. Note that magical opponents throw a serious wrench into the works.

Someone ran a playtest for a higher level published adventure and the IHers actually did worse, since they could not deal with sky-high grapple checks (no Freedom of Movement) against half-dragon/half-T-rexes or negative levels (the Arcanist was too weak to consistently cast the right spell).

 

[ruleslawyer]

I run an IH campaign, and have encountered none of the issues you bring up. My group of five 7th-level PCs tends to be barely survivable against EL 10 encounters, and that's including several variants (an improved token-generation system for the armiger, a larger set of token uses for the executioner and thief, glory points from Mastering IH) that make the PCs more survivable and arguably more potent.

I think that IH characters are maybe a level or two more powerful than D&D characters at low levels (1st-4th), but by mid-levels, it usually evens out.

That said, it is important to either read the ERRATA carefully, or purchase the revised rulebook, as IH 1.0 has a number of design issues that needed to be worked out. Perhaps you can post the character descriptions here and I can give you feedback? I don't want to say that you "were running the game incorrectly," but it may be that you and your players didn't understand some of the rules. Some of the things you mention ("taunting opponents") I don't even see in the rules.

 

[Capellan]

One thing to keep in mind is that the statement "an IH party is equivalent to a D&D party of the same level" has to be considered in light of the fact that not all D&D parties of the same level are equal (or even close to it) in every encounter.

IH parties excel at certain tasks (especially at low levels) and are weaker than a 'standard' D&D party (fighter+rogue+cleric+wizard) at others.

Things IH parties are really good at include: fighting large groups of lower level opponents; fighting opponents with low damage attacks; fighting monsters which have low AC/Defense; doing LOTS of HP of damage; mobbing a single large opponent.

Things IH parties tend to struggle with (compared to a 'standard' D&D party) include: fighting monsters that can fly (or have access to other movement forms the IH party can't counter, such as teleport); recovering HP in combat; monsters with very high DR/magic (since the DR would probably not come into play in D&D, where magic weapons are so common, but is a significant barrier to the IH PCs, and negates their own armour completely).

This rpg.net thread has some useful comments about IH PCs vs D&D PCs. The Iron Heroes Boards are also a good place to seek feedback.

changed spellcasting classes to IH variants

Note that this isn't actually required. It's perfectly acceptable for NPCs to use SRD classes. Just say they're demon-worshippers who have traded their souls for unimaginable power, or some other explanation

 

[Aussiegamer]

A lot of released stuff is not balanced for lots of systems, even some of the free bees in WotC are stuffed up. Putting in gear that is well out of balance for that level.

We as a GM need to look at the module first and adjust it for what we feel is correct.

 

[lior_shapira]

I run an IH campaign, and have encountered none of the issues you bring up. My group of five 7th-level PCs tends to be barely survivable against EL 10 encounters, and that's including several variants (an improved token-generation system for the armiger, a larger set of token uses for the executioner and thief, glory points from Mastering IH) that make the PCs more survivable and arguably more potent.

I think that IH characters are maybe a level or two more powerful than D&D characters at low levels (1st-4th), but by mid-levels, it usually evens out.

That said, it is important to either read the ERRATA carefully, or purchase the revised rulebook, as IH 1.0 has a number of design issues that needed to be worked out. Perhaps you can post the character descriptions here and I can give you feedback? I don't want to say that you "were running the game incorrectly," but it may be that you and your players didn't understand some of the rules. Some of the things you mention ("taunting opponents") I don't even see in the rules.

1. Taunt - An ability from the perform skill, forces your opponent to attack you with -2 for attacks and +1 damage (lasts 1+cha bonus rounds)
2. Revised - We've made all the corrections listed in the errata and FAQ
3. Character types - I wrote the classes in the first post, basically the armiger wants to get hit but not damaged (insane DR), the berserker can't wait to get hit (lots of tokens), and the harrier flanks anything in his path for the sneak damage.
4. I think the problem was partly the difference in power levels between IH and D&D, partly that the encounters were too well suited for the characters, and finally that we found the module itself quite lacking in imagination.

Thanks for your comments

 

[ruleslawyer]

No problem. I meant detailed descriptions for the PCs, but that's fine.

1) Ah, the taunt ability of the Perform skill: As I see it, the fact that this has a high DC is just fine; it requires a full-round action to use, is language-dependent, and basically only has the result of forcing your opponent to attack you (-2 attack/+1 damage seems not so bad for me). Yes, it helps the armiger be *useful* rather than getting ignored, but that seems to me to be correcting a weakness in the class, rather than being overpowered in some way. The opportunity cost of a FRA is pretty substantial in any case.

Also, it seems like your armiger PC either rolled really well, or has put some sort of insane skill/feat/trait/ability score investment into Perform (comedy), a skill that is hardly as generally useful as, say, Diplomacy, Jump, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, or Tumble. Getting a median Perform check of 25-30 at 5th level requires a skill modifier of +15-20, which for 8 ranks with no magical boosters seems not easy to do without some opportunity cost.

2) The Primal Howl ability: The errata explains that this ability's save DC is 10 + half berserker level + Str or Cha modifier + additional tokens spent. This means that assuming a Strength of 20, your 5th-level 'zerker should be getting DC 17 at base 2 tokens. An achaierai (the first CR 5 monster in the MM) beats this on a 10. Sounds about right to me.

3) Insane DR: Assuming that you use Soulmage's improved armor DR table, the (multiclassed) armiger is getting DR 1d10+2 max, no? This is *good*, but against a melee brute, not great. That achaierai hits for 11 damage per attack, which reduces to 4. Not great, but still... the armiger's entire shtick revolves around not getting hurt by mooks. His offensive capability is limited enough that it's almost not worth the defensive abilities IMO.

4) Flanking for sneak is pretty normal in D&D too, and taking harrier levels means that the PC is giving up SA dice anyway. All it takes to pull a flanking trick in D&D is having a buddy around using summon monster 1, which doesn't require an opposed check as in IH. Worse still, in D&D, the rogue can be invisible; welcome to a full round of sneak attack and another full round if the target loses initiative.

As I said, I was just trying to figure out if your group was somehow built weirdly; it may be that the module is a cakewalk in any case.

 

[Threedub]

We added a change to Primal Howl that made it act more like a D&D fear spell with a set duration. I can't remember what it was, I think 2d4 rounds, so in longer fights those enemies could return.

IH characters are more powerful in melee but are sitting ducks for some magic. Things that drain attributes, paralyze, poison can be very hard for them to handle until they get up in the healer feat chain. Also a lot of the neat abilities require a full-round action, so a slow spell is a killer.

That said, our group decided not to have a spell using class and we don't fight many spell using opponents (it's a rarity that makes meeting one kinda special--and scary). We just have raging fights, lots of character level plus/minus 2 hordes to keep the berserker busy, a couple big hitters to give the armiger something to think about, and a sneaky bastard to somehow reach the archer. IH was made to let characters have thrilling fights and mow down opponents, let them do it.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Primal howl is simply poorly written. First off, the text makes it seems like when you spend additional tokens to reduce the "casting time," those tokens add to the DC (that is a mistake). Second, there's no duration attached, unlike demoralize opponent (Intimidate) or pretty much every other token-based ability. IMHO, it should last 1 + (Cha or Str bonus) rounds, just like demoralize opponent.

Also, I have to wonder why primal howl is seen as such a deadly ability. Any ability that causes the frightened state (hardly the end of the world) in creatures with lower HD than the character is usually OK, especially since IH has no way to boost "caster level." For instance, I can't find a single CR 5 creature with fewer than 5 HD, meaning that if our hypothetical 5th-level 'zerker successfully uses primal howl, he's much more likely to inflict the shaken condition than the frightened condition. Shaken on a failed save is pretty darn weak compared to a fear spell.

 

[lior_shapira]

Primal howl is simply poorly written. First off, the text makes it seems like when you spend additional tokens to reduce the "casting time," those tokens add to the DC (that is a mistake). Second, there's no duration attached, unlike demoralize opponent (Intimidate) or pretty much every other token-based ability. IMHO, it should last 1 + (Cha or Str bonus) rounds, just like demoralize opponent.

Also, I have to wonder why primal howl is seen as such a deadly ability. Any ability that causes the frightened state (hardly the end of the world) in creatures with lower HD than the character is usually OK, especially since IH has no way to boost "caster level." For instance, I can't find a single CR 5 creature with fewer than 5 HD, meaning that if our hypothetical 5th-level 'zerker successfully uses primal howl, he's much more likely to inflict the shaken condition than the frightened condition. Shaken on a failed save is pretty darn weak compared to a fear spell.

I've looked through the revised edition, the revisions list and the FAQ and errata and could not find anything that indicates that additional tokens are not added to the DC. The DC calculation is still (DC 10 + half your berserker level + your Strength or Charisma modifier + tokens spent). How do you know its a mistake? I agree that its a bit ludicrous that if you have 10 tokens and spend them to howl as a free action, it also raises the DC by 10, and yet it is not officialy supported.

Its "deadly" because its parallel (in my opinion) to the Turn Undead ability of the D20 cleric. The difference is that there are no limited uses, it works on a much wider variety of foes, and is much harder to beat.