blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
It's neither rules-light nor rules-heavy. It's quite a nice balance, really.
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D&D 4E Is 4E a 'Rules Light' Game?
- Thread starter Hrothgar Rannúlfr
- Start date
Professor Phobos
First Post
Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
It's not even close to rules-light. If you peg 3.5 as rules heavy, 4e is rules medium.
But pretty much anything that's so dependent on a battle map and tactical depth can't be considered rules light.
That's a big ol' NO.
It's lighter than 3.x. But 3.x is lighter than, say, Aftermath.
(Honestly, I'd call 3.x "rules medium" compared to the abominations I've played or run...Aftermath, Space Opera, C&S 1e...)
RISUS is rules-light. FUDGE is as rules-light as you want it to be. Dying Earth is rules-light.
4e? Not.
This is a good thing.
It's lighter than 3.x. But 3.x is lighter than, say, Aftermath.
(Honestly, I'd call 3.x "rules medium" compared to the abominations I've played or run...Aftermath, Space Opera, C&S 1e...)RISUS is rules-light. FUDGE is as rules-light as you want it to be. Dying Earth is rules-light.
4e? Not.
This is a good thing.
I agree with the others. 4E is a lot lighter than 3E, but not 'rules light' on its own.
What annoys me, and adds a lot to the weight of the rules is that they missed a golden opportunity when they wrote up the attack powers. A vast proportion of the attack powers (especially for defenders and strikers) use the same damage formula as a basic attack, and could have been written that way.
e.g. they use 1[w]+str, when they could have said 1 and then + whatever bonus the power grants. It's supposed to be exceptions based, but they wrote out the standard event over and over instead of saying, standard BUT.
What annoys me, and adds a lot to the weight of the rules is that they missed a golden opportunity when they wrote up the attack powers. A vast proportion of the attack powers (especially for defenders and strikers) use the same damage formula as a basic attack, and could have been written that way.
e.g. they use 1[w]+str, when they could have said 1 and then + whatever bonus the power grants. It's supposed to be exceptions based, but they wrote out the standard event over and over instead of saying, standard BUT.
4e is just as rules heavy as 3x was, if not more so. It's just rules heavy in different areas.
AntiPaladin
First Post
Compared to 3.x, yes it is rules light. Maybe 25% - 50% the amount of tables and arithmetic calculations.
Compared to any other board game though... definitely not rules light!
Compared to any other board game though... definitely not rules light!
Anax
First Post
I believe it's rather medium-light. Definitely lighter than third edition.
The key thing is that all of the really complicated bits are encapsulated in the powers. If you had to worry about every power coming into play in any situation (which you would if they were 3E spells instead of 4E powers), it would be incredibly unwieldy. But in reality, each player has a maximum of 18 possible powers available to them to use on a given turn. (Wizards increase this number in terms of powers that may be available on a given day, because of their spellbooks.)
But the big big thing is that each of those powers is easily describable in the space of a 3"x5" index card. In my opinion, every player should have the full text of every power on their character sheet (or a quick-reference sheet attached to it, or a set of... 3"x5" index cards.) If you do that, then you're going to "just know" all of the rules that are at the core of the system very very quickly, and everything else that's relevant will appear in the description of the PCs and NPCs. The only time I'd expect players or DM to be cracking open the PHB is when thinking about what magic items could they might create, or what new things they're going to do next time they level up.
From that point of view--the need to open books for reference, I'd say that 4E is more rules light than any previous edition of D&D.
The key thing is that all of the really complicated bits are encapsulated in the powers. If you had to worry about every power coming into play in any situation (which you would if they were 3E spells instead of 4E powers), it would be incredibly unwieldy. But in reality, each player has a maximum of 18 possible powers available to them to use on a given turn. (Wizards increase this number in terms of powers that may be available on a given day, because of their spellbooks.)
But the big big thing is that each of those powers is easily describable in the space of a 3"x5" index card. In my opinion, every player should have the full text of every power on their character sheet (or a quick-reference sheet attached to it, or a set of... 3"x5" index cards.) If you do that, then you're going to "just know" all of the rules that are at the core of the system very very quickly, and everything else that's relevant will appear in the description of the PCs and NPCs. The only time I'd expect players or DM to be cracking open the PHB is when thinking about what magic items could they might create, or what new things they're going to do next time they level up.
From that point of view--the need to open books for reference, I'd say that 4E is more rules light than any previous edition of D&D.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
It's not really rules light. If you had to memorize all powers and the basic rule, your head would probably explode, just as with 3E.
The complexity has been shifted, though.
There is a number of base rules that everyone has to understand, like:
- Attack & Defense
- Save
- Action Types (Standard, Move, Minor, Free, Immediate (Interrupt or Reaction))
- Movement Types (Shift, Slide, Pull, Push, Teleport and simply moving)
- Skills
- Reading a Power Description
The fundamentals are not exactly hard, but they are already rich. Few games use such a richly detailed movement system, or the differentiation between attack, defense, saven and skills.
The real complexity is moved into the powers, and thus, they are kinda important on a "need-to-know" basis. If you have acccess to the power, you must understand it. If not, don't care. It is a bit like Fighter and Wizards - a Fighter doesn't really have to know how the Fireball Spell or Mordekainens Magnificent Mansion works.
The difference between 3E and 4E is that the complexity here is the same for everyone. Both Wizard and Fighter have powers - and thus a subset of rules - they have to keep track off and have to understand.
The complexity has been shifted, though.
There is a number of base rules that everyone has to understand, like:
- Attack & Defense
- Save
- Action Types (Standard, Move, Minor, Free, Immediate (Interrupt or Reaction))
- Movement Types (Shift, Slide, Pull, Push, Teleport and simply moving)
- Skills
- Reading a Power Description
The fundamentals are not exactly hard, but they are already rich. Few games use such a richly detailed movement system, or the differentiation between attack, defense, saven and skills.
The real complexity is moved into the powers, and thus, they are kinda important on a "need-to-know" basis. If you have acccess to the power, you must understand it. If not, don't care. It is a bit like Fighter and Wizards - a Fighter doesn't really have to know how the Fireball Spell or Mordekainens Magnificent Mansion works.
The difference between 3E and 4E is that the complexity here is the same for everyone. Both Wizard and Fighter have powers - and thus a subset of rules - they have to keep track off and have to understand.
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