Is a whip with Combat Reflexes the uber-comination that my player thinks it is?

[Azlan]

Not long ago, I was talking to a friend about the uber cominations of feats, skills, weapons, and/or special attacks that can power-played in 3.0/3.5 D&D. That friend pointed out how powerful a whip can be, used in just such a combination. Now I'm seeing first-hand just how powerful that can be.

I now have a ranger player character in my campaign that wields a whip in one hand, and a rapier in the other. This ranger has Combat Reflexes, and his Dex is 18. Whenever a melee weapon wielding opponent is 10' or 15' away, this ranger can wreck havoc on that opponent.

As the opponent closes the distance between himself and the ranger, the ranger gets AoO's: one AoO, as the opponent moves from 15' to 10' away; and then another AoO, as the opponent moves from 10' to 5' away. The ranger uses these AoO's to try disarming or tripping the opponent. (And, of course, if the ranger is trying to disarm, he gets a +2 bonus on the opposing attack roll.) Because the ranger is 10' or 15' away, and because most melee weapon wielding opponents do not have reach, the ranger himself does not usually incur an AoO while using his whip to disarm or trip. If the opponent is disarmed, the ranger gets yet another AoO as the opponent either stops to pick up his weapon, or as he draws a different one (asuming he has one). If the opponent is tripped, the ranger gets yet another AoO as the opponent gets up.

Because of this, I've seen many combat encounters where the ranger gets to use his maximum number of AoO's (which is 4, due to his Dex 18) almost every single round. And even if an opponent manages to retain his weapon and get within 5' of the ranger, the ranger still has his rapier, in his other hand, to fight with.

However...

I just re-read the special rules for whips, and I noticed the following line: "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack." (Italics added here for emphasis.)

So, because a whip-wielding combatant does not threaten the area into which he can make an attack, does this mean he does does NOT get AoO's against advancing opponents as they move from 15' to 10' away, and then from 10' to 5' away? And does this mean a whip-wielding combatant does NOT get AoO's against opponents as they pick up their dropped weapons, or as they get up after being tripped?

 

[Wippit Guud]

So, does this mean that a whip-wielding combatant does NOT get AoO's against closing opponents as they move from 15' to 10', and from 10' to 5'? And does this mean that a whip-wielding combatant does NOT get AoO's against opponents as they pick up their dropped weapons, or as they get up after being tripped?

That's what it means.

Unless they take Lasher...

 

[Storm Raven]

So, because a whip-wielding combatant does not threaten the area into which he can make an attack, does this mean he does does NOT get AoO's against advancing opponents as they move from 15' to 10' away, and then from 10' to 5' away? And does this mean a whip-wielding combatant does NOT get AoO's against opponents as they pick up their dropped weapons, or as they get up after being tripped?

Yes. It means exactly that. Unless you use some version of the lasher, you cannot make AoO attacks with a whip.

 

[DanMcS]

You also can't take multiple AoO against the same target in one round, so even if he threatened that big area, he couldn't get multiple shots at them. This is explicitly stated in the combat reflexes feat, among other places, so your ranger player is cheating intentionally.

 

[hong]

Furthermore, even if you had 15' reach with some other weapon, you don't get two AoOs on someone who moves from 15' away to 5' away. You only get one AoO for movement, even if it's from multiple threatened squares.

 

[hong]

You also can't take multiple AoO against the same target in one round, so even if he threatened that big area, he couldn't get multiple shots at them. This is explicitly stated in the combat reflexes feat, among other places, so your ranger player is cheating intentionally.

In 3.5, you can take multiple AoOs on the same target.

 

[MarauderX]

Another way to foil the whip-weilder is to launch a high Str NPC at him. If he fails his trip or disarm, the ranger would have to face a trip or disarm from the NPC, or let go of the whip to avoid the trip. Give that NPC a few feats like Improved disarm or Improved Trip and she gets a +4 bonus to yank that whip out of his hand.

That ranger wouldn't be useful for too long in close quarters either, as all of the other PCs would cramp his style unless he has feats like point-blank shot and/or precise shot.

 

[DanMcS]

In 3.5, you can take multiple AoOs on the same target.

Holy crap, you're right. The longer I play, the more convinced I get that they made random changes to the rules in 3.5 just for the sake of making changes.

 

[Azlan]

Furthermore, even if you had 15' reach with some other weapon, you don't get two AoOs on someone who moves from 15' away to 5' away. You only get one AoO for movement, even if it's from multiple threatened squares.

The 3.5 SRD says for Combat Reflexes, "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." (Again, italics added for emphasis.)

However, I find the wording of that last sentence rather ambiguous. I originally took it to mean that, if a character with a whip has a 15' reach, then an advancing opponent moving from 15' to 10' away, and then from 10' to 5', allows the character two separate AoO's.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Apart from what's been noted already, a whip does 1d3 non-lethal damage, and non against any opponent that has an armor bonus of +1 or more, or a natural armor bonus of +3 or more. Even if that character has 18 STR also, he does 1d3+4 nonlethal damage to naked opponents. Big whoop.

AR