Is celerity broken?

[Zephiel7]

I just managed to get a copy of PHBII through alternative means and I noticed that the 4th level celerity spell allows the mage to get an additional standard action. For a level 20 mage, this gets unbelievably broken. If the mage were to put this spell in a contingency and states for it to activate whenever someone does anything hostile to him, then he automatically gets the first initiative. There goes any point to taking the improved initiative line of feats.

If the mage subsequently uses timestop, then he has enough time to screw someone over via damage over time spells, (like cloudkill) cage him, and then dimension door somewhere else until he can recover. So the question is, should the conditions in the contingency spell be considered valid (since celerity itself is an immediate action and cannot be used until the second round of combat when everyone is not flat footed)? Or should celerity even be able to be put in a contingency?

 

[Darklone]

High level combat: Wizard casts Timestop, battle is over. Sometimes

It's as broken as 3.0 Haste was ... and not so bad as Haste used to be. And still the game worked.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Celerity has a disadvantage that the caster is dazed for a round afterwards.

Allowing celerity along with something that makes the caster immune to being dazed would be badly overpowered though.

Geoff.

 

[Zephiel7]

Celerity has a disadvantage that the caster is dazed for a round afterwards.

Allowing celerity along with something that makes the caster immune to being dazed would be badly overpowered though.

Geoff.

True, but as I showed, the celerity+contigency automatically allows him to cast timestop. That means he can cast all the spells he needs in the first round and then teleport away to safety while waiting the daze off.

I showed my DM this and he said that since celerity only activates when the wizard is not flat footed, which is the case in the first round of combat, it can't work with contingency in the case I presented since in the first round of combat the wizard is flat footed. I just agreed .

 

[Mouseferatu]

Some months back, I played in a campaign alongside another player who frequently used celerity. So I had frequent opportunity to see it used.

It's not broken. But it's annoying as all Hell.

It might be better in a smaller group, but in a group of 6 people, there's nothing more annoying for five of the players than for the sixth to get two actions in one round while the rest of us sit around waiting. True, he's dazed, which means that he doesn't get to go the following round--but seeing as how that extra spell per round can go a long ways toward ending combat, it means that fights ended sooner, and therefore that he got double rounds more often than he got off rounds.

I've banned celerity from my campaigns, not for balance reasons, but because everyone in my group (except that one player) finds the spell detrimental to the fun of all concerned.

 

[Sejs]

At level 20 a wizard is broken with or without Celerity, simply by virtue of the other point you mentioned - Time Stop.

Decent Dex, Improved Initiative, and Nerveskitter? Golly, you mean I go first?

Well... guess I'll just have to cast Time Stop and win, I suppose.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well...

In and of itself, it's on the high side of power for it's level, but not brokenly so.

If combined with something that voids Daze, it becomes a pre-quicken (as it eats up your Swift action in the next round) that can be applied to any spell with no spell level adjustment. This puts it at seriously overpowered - one extra spell in round one, on par with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell capable of doing the highest level spell you can cast in rounds 2+, and for a lot less of an investment in permanent recources.

If combined with something that operates independantly of initiative - such as Contingency - it approaches an "I go first" button - and at 12th (where this first works), going first gives you very good odds in a battle. Another power increment, this one pretty sizeable.

When combined with Foresight (which makes you never flat-footed for the duration) it becomes an "I go first" button. And at 17th, where this first becomes possible, going first puts your odds of winning at around 80% or so.

When combined with Foresight and Time Stop.... umm... what opponent?

It's not that it's a broken spell in and of itself....

 

[Zephiel7]

At level 20 a wizard is broken with or without Celerity, simply by virtue of the other point you mentioned - Time Stop. Decent Dex, Improved Initiative, and Nerveskitter? Golly, you mean I go first?

There are plenty of classes that require a higher dex and can also obtain all the said feats. For example, the swordsage gets +5 iniative as a class feature, and actually requires a moderately high dex in order to max out AC. The wizard isn't invaribaly going first, and hence time stop isn't really that bad, IMHO.

The problem is when celerity is combined with contingency. That pretty much gives a 20th level wizard the ability to "contingency" a timestop spell. Of course, if the said class being assaulted had immunity to poisons, dominations and whatnot through equipment, the wizard is limited in what type of spells he can cast to weaken the opponent- but that still does not eliminate the fact that the wizard goes first, nullifying the advantage of "quick" characters (ie, the sneaky rogue, assassin, monk, or the swordsage).

Silly PHBII trying to make fighters stronger - all they succeeded in doing is make the wizard stronger .

 

[Jack Simth]

The problem is when celerity is combined with contingency. That pretty much gives a 20th level wizard the ability to "contingency" a timestop spell. Of course, if the said class being assaulted had immunity to poisons, dominations and whatnot through equipment, the wizard is limited in what type of spells he can cast to weaken the opponent- but that still does not eliminate the fact that the wizard goes first, nullifying the advantage of "quick" characters (ie, the sneaky rogue, assassin, monk, or the swordsage).

You can Contingency a Celerity at 12th level. 11th, if you have an Orange Prism Ioun Stone (for the +1 caster level); basically as soon as you have Contingency. Sufficiently well-worded (and by that, I mean a wording that makes the DM think it works that way) the Wizard goes first with the combo. At any level, going first gives you a serious advantage. Normally, who goes first is random (although weighted) by the roll of the dice, and weighting initiative is pricy in terms of stats and feats.

Then the Contingent Celerity comes along at 11th/12th, and suddenly you go first in the next combat at the cost of two spell slots (one 4th, one 6th) and a slightly expensive focus, with no roll, regardless of how much someone else invested in going first.

 

[Zephiel7]

Then the Contingent Celerity comes along at 11th/12th, and suddenly you go first in the next combat at the cost of two spell slots (one 4th, one 6th) and a slightly expensive focus, with no roll, regardless of how much someone else invested in going first.

Wherein lies the problem. If a character decides to invest signficantly in going first by choosing the proper class and line of feats, he should be given the priviledge of getting the first blow in, so to speak. That's what makes this spell broken - a character with a penalty to initiative can go before a person with a +11 bonus or more.