Is coup de grace a broken rule?

[Tom McCafferty]

Is coup de grace a broken rule?

I have a party that only attacks sleeping enimies. They wait for the big creatures to go to sleep before they attack and only attack the big creatures first.

Before hand they have a spotter sent to observe the enemy who is an invisible halfling thief with very high move silent and hide skills with the pass without trace spell cast on them.

They make use of the rule that in skill checks 20s don't automatically succeed so the enemy find it imposible to detect the spotter. This weekend they sneaked up on two sleeping Fire Giants.

The coup de grace rule allowed them to have an automatic critical hit and then the fire giants needed to make fortitude saves vs 10 + damage done. The thief got his extra d6 too. The weapons they used were long spears, thus giving a three times critical. The Fire Giants have +14 on Fortitude saves, so the killers only needed to do 35 points of damage to make it impossible for a 124 hit point creature to be slain.

I don't want to use the same tactics with them, so what would you do? Am I missing something about coup de grace? Is there a chance the sleeping creatures can wake up when in danger?

 

[Pax]

There ae a LOT of things going on here that just smell WRONG to me. One, Fire Giants are not just primitive, cave-dwelling savages. Why don't they sleep behind nice,solid, giant-scale doors ... with nice, secure, giant-scale locks ... ?

Also, why don't they have mooks/flunkies/lackeys/etc, on guard duty? Even just a couple dire wolf "pets".

Now -- fire giants are described as living in "well organised military group" -- and military group that doesn't post SENTRIES, needs to have everyone above the bottom-most rank called in on the carpet yesterday (the rest just get shot on the spot). Seriously. Got only a pair of fire giants? Then one should sleep while the other keeps watch ... !

Now, that said and done, on to other angles.

First off, you could try doing it back to them. Why do the monsters always wait for the PCs to come to them? Have the PC's attacked while in camp (the first 3E game we played, that was the easiest way to frustrate the GM -- come up with a new, better way to keep ourselves from being attacked while sleeping. At first it was a dedicated, two-people-awake-at-all-times, staggered-watch cycle.

Then we added Leomund's Secure Shelter for a while.

When he had burrowing creatures coming at us, we (or rather, I) switched to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. BOY, did that drive him nuts.

Point being -- we had to take some pretty extraordinary steps to reduce (but never eliminate!) the risk of being attacked while we were sleeping.

Your players, too, should DREAD the middle-of-the-night "okay, X is attacking, let's make some rolls to see who wakes up when ...", often quickly followed by "No, Bob, you said earlier that you take OFF your armor to sleep, so you are NOT in your full plate right now ..."

As well, constantly sneaking up and MURDERING enemies -- even vile monsters -- in their sleep, is hardly a GOOD act. Neutral at best, imo.

...

I'm sure others will also offer suggestions.

 

[Fenes 2]

There is the alarm spell. Guard animals like Dogs can scent even invisible intruders. Doors may be locked, and have an alarm set - could be something primitive like a bell on a string that gets pulled when the door opens.

 

[FireLance]

Agree with Pax.

For that matter, were the other characters just as stealthy? Otherwise, you could give the giants a Listen check (maybe at -6 for asleep) versus the noisiest character's Move Silently, and don't forget the armour check penalty for heavy armour.

Are they attacking the giants one at a time or both at once? If the former, the second giant should have another chance to hear the death cries of the first.

 

[Fenes 2]

I almost forgot my number 1 solution for such problems: Talk with the players, explain that such tactics are no fun for you, and ask them to alter their use of coup de grace - and casually mention that the deity of combat could start to give all such "victims" a "fair chance for a fair fight".

 

[green slime]

Do not forget that those Dire Wolf "watchdogs" have scent, and can detect the presence of invisble foes.

Having an ally with tremorsense is also a boost against the invisible.

Trip wires and other traps can be set against intruders. Fire hazards can be particularly useful. Lying to sleep in a room with bubbling lava on the floor...

One halfling sneaking around may, if VERY lucky get past all these things. But a whole company of adventurers? What level are we talking about here?

But the moment he Coup-de-graces an enemy, there goes the cover. Stabbing a fire giant to death with an overgrown toothpick can't really be down silently. Or perhaps one of them is a light sleeper, or betweener their seeing them go to bed and the actual attack, one of the giants got a sudden bathroom urge.

Not saying to nerf this ability completely, but at so often for them not to depend on this entirely.

 

[Tom McCafferty]

Hi there

Thanks for the replies, but the main point seems to be missed so far.

Why can a 1st level character assasinate a sleeping 124 hit point creature using a spear with out the creature being able to save?

 

[Olive]

Why can a 1st level character assasinate a sleeping 124 hit point creature using a spear with out the creature being able to save?

They can't. The rules say quite clearly that the creature being delt damage to gets a fortitude save of DC 10 + damage dealt as you said. To get the 35 points with a long spear they'd need to roll pretty well...

The point is that the coup de grace is meant for exceptional situations. As a DM you're allowing these exceptional situations to happen all the time. The ideas in this thread are ways for you to rebalance this situation in a realistic way that doesn't involve getting back at the characters in what could seem a malicious manner (ie doing the same to them).

So it seems that maybe you've missed the point: coup de grace isn't designed to be used all the time, its designed to allow a character to kill someone in an exceptional circumstaqnce. it's only broken because you're not challenging your players.

Anyway, here's my idea: full round to kill a creature with coup de grace. does the dying creature not make any sound as its throat is cut? Does that sound not wake the other fire giants? It's not nearly as sensible as alarm or using doors or gurad dogs ort anything else, but it still makes sense.

 

[nimisgod]

Hi there

Thanks for the replies, but the main point seems to be missed so far.

Why can a 1st level character assasinate a sleeping 124 hit point creature using a spear with out the creature being able to save?

In the same way a kobold with a heavy pick the can kill a sleeping party?

 

[Tom McCafferty]

Thanks for the replies.

It has been said that coup de grace is for exceptional circumstances, yet in the listing of where it applies it specifically says sleeping creatures. This is about 6-8 hours a day, perhaps except for elves who can stay awake round the clock. This is why I think it is a broken rule.

When silenced and invisible creatures can assasinate any sleeping character better than an assasin can, something is wrong.

Otherwise no one would go adventuring as they would be killed in their sleep. Imagine a rat sneaks up to a character sleeping by the fire and bites their neck. The PC then has to save vs fortitude DC12.