Is D&D a setting or a toolbox?

[teitan]

I've seen a few people mention d&d as a toolbox and cite d20 games as the reason it is a toolbox... well and good but then it is no longer d&d and many of those d20 games aren't compatible with d&d. That's the d20 system, not d&d itself. D&D as a toolbox extends to worlds that have arcane and divine caster splits etc. Sure you can modify that but it isn't d&d anymore. D&d as a system is very flexible but the assumptions baked into the math and roles do not make for a good Conan game or Middle Earth. In the case of Conan there was a heavily modified d20 game, Middle Earth a website but these are very different versions of fantasy that d&d as written can not emulate and a true toolbox game actually emulates what the game master wants out of the box. They may have said d&d was a toolbox to emulate your favorite fantasy in the books but that doesn't mean it didn't fail as a toolbox. D&d is its own genre, a flexible genre certainly able to handle pulp, high fantasy, survival etc. But with the assumption of d&d tropes.

 

[Greg K]

[MENTION=5038]Greg K[/MENTION] If it's just another toolbox, why not use a better system like Savage Worlds or whatever? I hear a lot of people doing just that. My sense is that D&D will best succeed (fiscally) by leveraging its genre rather than trying to be a universal toolkit.

I should have specified toolkit for fantasy. Anyway, as for SW, these days SW is my go to for non-supers. However, when I run D&D:
1) Between variant spell lists (DMG), official class variants (in supplements), variant class abilities (Unearthed Arcana), spontaneous divine casting (Unearthed Arcana), and urban/wilderness skill swaps (Cityscape Enhancement 1), I have official methods to, pretty much tailor the classes to what I want them to be. The monk and Druid's are the exception, but I swap out the former for a variant of the OA Shaman and, for the latter, I just use a variant of the cleric.
From there, I increase the number of skills per per level and/or skills known for a few classes and add three of Green Ronin's Master Classes (i.e. Psychic, Shaman, and Witch) and a hybrid warrior/arcane class influenced by AEG's Myrmidon

2) I add the Book of Iron Might's Maneuver system
3) I fix (for my purposes) Hit Points by using either
a) the Injury variant from Unearthed Arcana; or
b) The UA Death and Dying Variant and a variant from Scrollworks in which HP loss leads to fatigue and exhaustion.
4) I change rules for poison using Poisoncraft (Blue Devil) and a web article by Sean K Reynolds;
5) I change the magic item creation rules using Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games)
6) I implement some of Sean K Reynold's Fewer Absolutes
7) I add action points (which work more like True20 Conviction/M&M Hero Points)
8) I drop Level Drain and 3e XP costs
9) I use the Slow Leveling Variant
10) I cull the spells (removing things like Rope Trick, Prismatic spells and Law/Chaos Spells)
11) I implement the DMG training variant
BAM! I pretty much used the toolkit to have D&D my way.

 

[teitan]

That looks... migraine inducing ;-)

 

[S'mon]

I definitely treat D&D as a toolbox not a setting. Even my Forgotten Realms campaign uses the published material as toolbox elements, not canon.

 

[jhunton]

D&D is one of very few games I own that doesn't have a built-in setting. I think that's a good thing.

YES I think it's a toolbox.it's a set of rule's to bild on to us's what ever would you wont. but do's WOTC know this ?

 

[delericho]

YES I think it's a toolbox.it's a set of rule's to bild on to us's what ever would you wont. but do's WOTC know this ?

I think WotC would very much like to see us stop home-brewing, and instead use their rules (without modification), their monsters, their settings, and their adventures. That way, they can sell us a whole lot of stuff.

But... I think that the D&D-RPG team at WotC are also very well aware that that just won't fly - I expect 5e to be more amenable to homebrewing than either 3e or 4e were.

 

[Greg K]

I've seen a few people mention d&d as a toolbox and cite d20 games as the reason it is a toolbox... well and good but then it is no longer d&d and many of those d20 games aren't compatible with d&d. That's the d20 system, not d&d itself. D&D as a toolbox extends to worlds that have arcane and divine caster splits etc. Sure you can modify that but it isn't d&d anymore. D&d as a system is very flexible but the assumptions baked into the math and roles do not make for a good Conan game or Middle Earth. In the case of Conan there was a heavily modified d20 game, Middle Earth a website but these are very different versions of fantasy that d&d as written can not emulate and a true toolbox game actually emulates what the game master wants out of the box. They may have said d&d was a toolbox to emulate your favorite fantasy in the books but that doesn't mean it didn't fail as a toolbox. D&d is its own genre, a flexible genre certainly able to handle pulp, high fantasy, survival etc. But with the assumption of d&d tropes.

While I agree that d20 and D&D are not the same thing (d20 as in the d20SRD license only includes the things that WOTC chose to make available for others to use) and not everything produced under it is compatible with D&D, please do not go telling myself and others what type of fantasy is and is not D&D. It may not be D&D to you, but that does not mean it is not D&D to others.

What are the D&D tropes? Are they:

Lots of PC Races? Nope. There have been officially published discussion on single race campaigns.

A party comprised of different classes? Nope. Single class parties have been officially covered in multiple editions. And the game can be run for a single character so parties are not a requirement.

Divine/Arcane Split? Sorry, at least one edition has already discussed campaigns with no magic (see 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook). You can't have an arcane/divine split if there is no magic.

No hit locations and critical hits that kill a character in one blow or leave lasting injuries? For official versions see 0D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor and 2e PO: Combat and Tactics. For a 3e third party version using the d20 STL, see Torn Asunder (Bastion Press).

"Vancian" Magic? Both 2e and 3e have had official variants that include spell point systems.

 

[teitan]

I'm talking rules as written and how the game has evolved. Yeah with some heavy rules alteration you can use d&d as any fantasy setting but d&d as written and evolved is its own genre. Kit bashing moves away from those core assumptions. Don't take my post as an insult, sure play as you wish. Nothing wrong with that at all. Use the rules as you wish but it takes heavy modification of the RAW to change those core assumptions and n most cases, it is a different game because it is so heavily modified.

 

[billd91]

I'm talking rules as written and how the game has evolved. Yeah with some heavy rules alteration you can use d&d as any fantasy setting but d&d as written and evolved is its own genre. Kit bashing moves away from those core assumptions. Don't take my post as an insult, sure play as you wish. Nothing wrong with that at all. Use the rules as you wish but it takes heavy modification of the RAW to change those core assumptions and n most cases, it is a different game because it is so heavily modified.

For those of us who do view D&D as a toolkit, modifying the RAW to leave stuff out or emphasize other stuff or bringing new stuff in from compatible supplements is not a hardship. Many of us have been doing it for 30+ years. And even if we don't specifically change rule structures, by limiting the classes, spells, monsters, races, whatever, we're definitely creating substantially different outcomes. So, again, arguments that D&D isn't a toolkit fall pretty flat in my estimation.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think WotC would very much like to see us stop home-brewing, and instead use their rules (without modification), their monsters, their settings, and their adventures. That way, they can sell us a whole lot of stuff.

As is often the case, I think this is an issue where the interests of the producers and the consumers are in direct conflict. Hard to see a real resolution to that conflict, though hopefully you're right and WotC does realize that the toolbox mentality reaches a wider audience.