is D&D evil? Thoughts please

[Tetsubo]

When I've encountered anti-gaming sentiments I always use Monopoly as an example. I ask the person if they've ever played Monopoly. Most people (at least in America) have played the game. I ask them if when they "bought" things in the game did they really think they owned them? Did they really think they could walk into that place in the real world and claim ownership? They of course say no at this point. I reply that the reason they don't think that is that the game is divorced from reality. I tell them that RPG's are the same, divorced from reality. This usually works.

 

[Nyrahil]

Is this just a US-Problem???

As you might see I live in Germany (northern Part), and I believe that the whole DnD is evil is something that somehow has a great fellowship in the US. I don't know why although I have a couple of thoughts about that which tackle the thing from a historical point of view and the first european people who came to the US (I guess you all know what I'm talking about).
Now to the thing which bugs me here in Germany. As you might know or maybe not the southern part of germany is much more religious than the northern part. And from the south there are now coming voices which say pretty much the same thing: Roleplaying is evil and they are getting cheers for that. Here in the north part I never heard anyone talk about such things. I hope the thing stays down in the south and dies there 'cause the people start thinking again.
Every believe is good as long as is doesn't condemn other religions and its followers start to bully people around. It happened before and is happening. And the places on earth where it is happening are mostly places of war. I don't think I have to tell you which places I talk about.

Just a fellow atheist gamer

 

[WayneLigon]

Web links for and against DND

http://www.locksley.com/6696/rpgsatan.htm - one version of the Pulling Report by Stackpole

This, of course, being one of the most important because it takes us right back to the very beginning, the root -so to speak- of the problem: James Dallas Egbert III.

Apparently, it was a slow news day or something because otherwise I would think it unlikely that the story - basically made up out of whole cloth - would have gotten the circulation it did. We can, BTW, all thank Mr. Egbert for pushing our hobby into a ghetto from which it is unlikely ever to emerge.

I live in the American South, literally in the Heart of Dixie where you can't swing a sacrificed cat without hitting a Southern Baptist. With the combination of the SB's being basically taken over by their extreme right-wing members (there is talk of the church splitting in two, with the majority left and middle factions taking on a new name to distance themselves from what seems like the ever-escalating silliness the right-wingers seem to indulge in every year at the annual convention, issuing proclamations as if they were Papal Bulls concerning how women should 'graciously submit' or how all good SB's should avoid 'homo-friendly' Disneyworld) and the actual /need/ for the media to jump on the smallest bit of circumstantial evidence in order to garner advertising revenue, it's amazing we didn't see more book burnings than we did.

The sheer amount of Urban Legend 'lore' that surrounds this game in the minds of people here is amazing. I'm sure it would make a fascinating study in folkways someday, along with a larger investigation of the so-called 'Satanic Panic' (For those of you unaware, it was - and is - the widespread belief that a massive Satanic Underground exists in this country that routinely kidnaps and sacrifices /thousands/ of children in this country each year, with a sideline of pedophilic sex abuse and mind control; secret operative at every level of society help these people and hinder investigations

Selling Satan: The Tragic History of Mike Warnke
by Mike Hertenstein, Jon Trott (Contributor), Michael Hertenstein

Satanic Panic: The Creation of a Contemporary Legend
by Jeffrey S. Victor

Satan's Silence: Ritual Abuse and the Making of a Modern American Witch Hunt
by Michael Snedeker, Debbie Nathan

These provide a good overview)


It's continually amazing to me that such things continually persist about our hobby, but they do. The most recent incident:

I'm at the comic store. You'd /think/ that there would be some overlap, wouldn't you, between comic fans and gaming fans? Not that I've seen.

I'm picking up my weekly stuff, and there is a kid and his Mom in line in front of me. Kid is getting his stuff, and Mom, herself, is looking at some comics. Somehow someone mentions gaming, and the kid asks how all that works. He's never encountered it before.

So I give a brief explanation, he nods, semi-interested. Then Mom chimes in with how the son of 'a friend' killed someone over the game, giving out with this knowing little 'Well, if the enquirer says it then it must be true' smile when I express doubts over this.

Sigh.

 

[fimp]

Look at this textfile with a lot of "reasons" why christians shouldnt play D&D.


http://www.seii.com/ccn/cults/satn07.txt



If i can use my own words in here, ill say its bulls-hit. Of course, weak people, with weak minds can get too addicted. But a normal functioning being should be able to cope with it.

 

[Thakkar Rogsnar]

Just to keep everyone in perspective on this one, please remember the humble beginnings of Dungeons and Dragons. If it were not for religious fanatics our game would have never made it this far. Gary Gygax and company were struggling to keep TSR alive during the latter 70s, early 80s. Becuase of a small church in, I believe it was Colorado, Dungeons and Dragons hit the big time. The church wanted the game banned in this particular small town and because of this D&D received national media and the game was launched into the prime time! Bravo! I love it when a plan comes together! (Especially when those that would force their beliefs on me are thwarted! Once again, BRAVO!)

 

[Khur]

You are your own determiner...

I'll start out by saying that I was raised fundamentalist Christian. I have an open mind about things, and I wouldn't have a problem with many persons speaking their minds about a subject if they were actually educated enough to speak on the matter. Yet, many suppose that their beliefs are enough to prove that something is wrong.

If your walk with Christ is strong, then you have nothing to fear from doing actual research into the ways of evil. Educate yourself so people within the circles you'd like to break actually take you seriously, instead of thinking you a fool. In this light, the tract you mention is not funny, it's ludicrous. If anyone has had a similar experience to any of those shown in the tract please let us know. Has anyone ever played a game (D&D or otherwise) that a player had to leave the game permanently because her character died?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

The tract is a piece of dangerous, misinformed rhetoric that is typical of Chick tracts. This type of fear mongering is rampant in the Christian sector. Good people actually trust the garbage to make decisions. And the misinformed, uneducated persons who publish this hack work point the finger at anyone who opposes them and cry, "Work of the devil!" No meaningful dialog an take place in a state of absolutist views.

More on D&D:
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/204/0204_10.asp

Harry Potter:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5012/5012_01.asp

(It should be noted that King James loved stories of witches.)

My stepmother threw away my D&D long ago out of fear. I thought less of her for a long time because of it too (which was wrong of me, I know). She bought the rhetoric and didn't bother to talk to me or learn for herself. I fully support a parent protecting children from something they see as wrong or destructive, but most make their choices out of fear. This is wrong, and will diminish the respect your children have for you. Get involved and know your kids, instead of acting out of ignorance.

I've met Christians and persons of other religions that play D&D. None of them use it for occult training or recruiting. The Asartru (witches) I knew did play with their circle members, but the religion and the game did not intermingle. Quite frankly, most people take their religion too seriously to mix it into a game.

None of the persons in a "spellcasting" religion I knew of tried to teach anyone magic. Further, they would never encourage its use to harm others. The very idea that even first edition D&D has anything that could be used as real-world mysticism is a joke. Mysticism in the real world doesn't work the way D&D suggests. Read Authentic Thaumaturgy by Isaac Bonewits or some Carlos Cansteneda.

No doubt that some kids get involved in D&D and use it to do horrible things "in game". Suggesting this is occult phenomena is highly dubious. In Iowa, two high-school seniors broke into an animal shelter run by persons who belonged to the TM movement (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of Beatles fame). They killed dozens of animals and destroyed property. They did not play D&D, but they had a beef with the "non-Christian" meditators. Now they're in jail.

Of course, the Christianity with which I'm familiar teaches tolerance and mercy. Where animal killing and the murder of abortion clinic doctors fits into this mind set I have no idea. It also teaches forgiveness. Many Christians are big on the eye-for-an-eye doctrine and seem to forget the as-ye-treat-the-least-of-these doctrine. Do unto others?

The fact is, people use all kinds of excuses to do bad things. People like to look for scapegoats so they don't have to take a serious look at themselves. They prefer to be led then to take responsibilty for their own lives. Hate is hate, even if it's cloaked in religion. 9/11 should have taught us that. And before anyone starts feeling superior, just as much murder, thieving, war, and suffering has been caused by so-called Christians as any other religion. Read your history ... perhaps more.

On a final note, it's just as wrong to attack Christians with rhetoric and inflammatory jargon. If you want to influence someone, know them. If you're afraid of what you kmight find or learn in that process, then perhaps your own position isn't so strong. As I've stated before, your solid foundation in Christ is not assailable by evil, even if you read materials to educate yourself for an attack on a perceived evil.

Ah well, I've talked enough.

 

[Darkness]

Thread closed at the request of its originator.

- Darkness