Is D&D Really Mythic Roleplaying? Is this what Epic Tier (20th-30th lvl) represents?

[Wyrmshadows]

Is D&D really supposed to simulate mythic roleplaying? I mean, has D&D gone from approximating the Sword and Sorcery daring do of REH's Conan and Tolkien's LoTR saga to the Epic of Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Achilles, Hercules, Perseus, etc?

I am asking this because some of the assumptions I have read on RPing boards about how high level PCs should be superheroes capable of wrestling rogue dragons and drinking the seas from their mead horns. This isn't a judgment, just an observation.


Personally I don't think that D&D is really geared for mythic role-playing. When D&D does epic (ie. mythic) what I see, unless one has a very good DM and excellent players willing to go deeper into things, is an extension of the same. Instead of 10th level dungeons, there are now 23rd level dungeons, more slaughter, more aquisition ad nauseum until the PCs either die or retire. D&D can be much deeper than this, and for many it is, but lets face it for many epic means nothing more than a greater level of power ups.
This doesn't strike me as mythic in any way.

IMO when D&D does mythic I don't see the Greek Hercules or Achilles, the Babylonian Gilgamesh or Egyptian Isis (as a woman who learned RA's truename and became a goddess), instead I see Xena Warrior Princess and Hercules the Legendary Journeys. All the woo-woo, cool abilities, bad martial arts but not much else. I believe that this is in part because of the nature of the game and not in and of itself a failing of DMs or players. It takes a DM and players who are willing to work a mythic atmosphere into the game as a thematic element that transcends the rules.

4e proposes an Epic tier where PCs can battle a god or two and possess epic destinies and whatnot. Sounds good, but there is an immense gulf between the fantasy of novel fiction and that of mythology. Outside of distinctly non-mortal agencies in fantasy fiction such as Gandalf no one really accomplishes what mythic heroes were capable of because much of their abilities were due to divine or semi-divine birthright. Gandalf is a good example because of his battle with the Balrog man to demon and Gandalf wasn't a human being. Also 4e is granting magical powers to everyone past level 20. I guess everyone gains some divine spark at a certain level.

Even the greatest Greek heroes beyond the classical age looked up to the amazing figures of their myths who accomplished what mortals could not because they were not mortals and served as an ideal to aspire to. None could be as strong as Hercules without the blood of Zeus.

I really belive that the relationship between D&D and mythology is very tenuous at best. Myths are folklore and on a deeper level represent deep symbolism and metaphor about the human condition. Read as mere fiction, myths are illogical, surreal, filled with wild inconsistancies, weapons that can shear off mountaintops (something that makes D&D's over the top magic seem petty in comparison) and Mary Sue type semi-divine characters because they are myths. Hell, most well managed D&D campaigns are more interally consistant than a lot of the stories in mythology. Myths can be read as either odd (to the modern mind) stories or metaphors for deeper realities...I choose the latter because the former is IMO often unsatisfying.

I would argue that fantasy RPing is informed by mythology just like Tolkien's works were informed by mythology. However, D&D has never been a game of playing mythic heroes that transcend even the near superhuman heights of ability found in even High Fantasy. D&D has always been more akin to Sword and Sorcery fiction with a dose of High Fantasy tossed in. Sword and Sorcery because of its assumed focus of wealth aquisition and glory. The High Fantasy element is found in the prevalence of magic, black and white morality, fantastic creatures and gods who interact frequently with mortals (relatively so).

In 23+yrs of DMing D&D the ONLY thing I have seen in regards to the mythic is the use of certain names in Deities and Demigods, certain artifacts and certain monsters. D&D's character isn't one of mythic role playing in the Age of Heroes. At best D&D (as written in the core rules of every edition thus far) borrows from the mythic no more than it borrows from Tolkien and other popular fantasy....as a reference point and not as an example of how to play the game or the assumed atmosphere and theme of given campaigns.

I have seen one published setting intentionally set in a mythic age of heroes and that is Fantasy Flight's Dawnforge. Every other setting has been Sword and Sorcery, High Fantasy or a mixture of both.

I think thaf is going to have mythic heroes that change the of the world, found great religions, empires, and become part of the actual legend of the setting in which they are a part, the game must at epic tier, change focus if epic is to mean anything. I am just one of those wet blankets who sees Odysseus' journey and Conan's adventures as epic even if they didn't reach over 20th level. LOTR was an epic. The Dragonlance Saga (pre Age of Mortals) was an epic tale where heroes didn't get past 15th or 16th level and saved their world.

These are epics, not just crossing some metagame goalpost and becoming an epic "hero." Without the proper thematic elements in place, I don't see anything epic/mythic about someone just because they stepped over some arbitrary line in the sand between hero and superhero.

Please discuss.



Wyrmshadows

 

[S'mon]

Well, first up most mythological heroes would be Fighters ca 8th-14th level - like most of the hero stats in 1e Deities & Demigods.

Second up, the whole going-into-ancient-dungeons trope of D&D doesn't fit a mythic age, the mythic age is when those dungeons were built! D&D is at most medieval fantasy, not Heroic Age fantasy.

Third up, I do think it's possible to play D&D with something of a mythic feel. 3e is a hell of a long way from that, but many of the BECMI D&D modules had a pretty strong mythic feel - from Immortals stuff like 'Wrath of Olmpus' (battling Immortals setting the destiny of the cosmos) to 1st level 'Arena of Thyatis' (Immortals interfering in the daily lives of mortals); it reminded me of Classical World myth and myth-influenced history eg Herodotus. Perhaps the simpler ruleset contributed, but it was mostly a different attitude I think. AD&D adventures never had that feel.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

4e proposes an Epic tier where PCs can battle a god or two and possess epic destinies and whatnot.

Well, the last time I heard on the battling gods issue, the assumption was that a 30th level party, fulfilling the right quests and finding the correct artifacts, can battle a god. That's _not_ battle a god or two...

Aside from that:

There is little a game can do to ensure that people actually make a "respectful" hommage to mythical stories, but there are some pointers helping people get there.
From the description of magical items and the few details on spells we have, we can assume that moving up tiers means getting access to abilities that change the style of adventure you do. I am not sure if it can avoid dungeoneering from level 1-30, but it can sure help doing so - once heroes can teleport long distances, fly and scry and finally plane shift, there is less need for walking through a whole dungeon, and this means that the adventure premise must be adjusted to fit the new character abilities.

 

[xechnao]

D&D 4e is a miniatures skirmish game. The Epic style is on a different-higher level. Storyteller fits Epic more IMO.

I think they should have stopped at paragon. Make Epic a different sourcebook-playbook, that it would play without minis.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Thanks for responding, keep up the insights.

My point really boils down to:

Can D&D, by the book, based on the assumptions of the game and not individual campaigns, support a game that makes epic levels more meaningful than just cosmic dungeoncrawls? If we look at the myths of our cultures these mythic heroes like Beowulf, Achilles, and Hercules are exceedingly powerful but their stories become foundational tales representing the values of their cultures. Should D&D RAW give help to DMs providing them with tools to make the PCs epic characters more than silly fantasy superheroes and instead icons upon whom faiths, knightly orders, empires and whatnot are built upon?

I believe that WoTC should push epic play in this direction as opposed to epic dungeoncrawls which IMO are, at this level banal in the extreme.

Also, should D&D transform paragon level heroes (lvls 10-20) into supernatually empowered superheroes who can rip down temples to evil dieties with their raw strength, wrestle dragons, shake the earth with the strike of their warhammer, etc. at epic levels (lvls 21-30)?

Your thoughts are appreciated.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

This has been tried before, with mixed results.

Glorantha, the game world developed by Greg Stafford, has long had the idea that characters would go on 'HeroQuests' in really high-level play. There was a fair bit of support in the game setting for this, and basically no support in the rules (at least up to RuneQuest 3, the version put out by Chaosium). Chaosium promised a version of the rules that would support HeroQuesting for decades, and it became somewhat of a running joke among Gloranthaphiles as to when HeroQuest would come out.

Basically, the idea behind a HeroQuest was that a PC or group of PCs entered the realm of Myth (the Hero Plane) during a special time (Sacred Time, usually) via special ceremonies, secret knowledge, and (very important) the support of their tribe or cult. They would then relive/re-enact some founding myth of their society/religion, taking the place of their deity or some other figure in the story of their religion, either maintaining the myth (dangerous) or attempting to change it (far more dangerous).

If you succeeded on a HeroQuest you could change some aspect of reality.

For example (and this is all from memory) in Glorantha the Troll race suffers under a horrible curse called the Trollkin Curse, which causes all but a few of their young to be born as runts, in litters. The greatest of all the Trolls in troll society, in every troll religion, strive to undo this curse, which was inflicted on them by the being known as Nysalor the Bright or Gbaji the Deceiver, depending on who you ask, when the trolls, along with the Dragonnewts, withdrew from the council involved in Gbaji's creation.

Now, the rules are a bit sketchy on this, but it said that they try (and fail ) to undo this curse by HeroQuesting, which involves going to the Hero Plane/Mythic World and re-enacting/reliving the event which led to the trollkin curse, becoming their cultural patron/god during this trial, and (I guess) trying to do better than their god did.

In the world of Glorantha, all of the Troll Heros who have tried to lift the Trollkin Curse have failed.


I know that there are RQ fans currently working at WoTC , and that RQ was a fairly major influence on 3E (Johnathan Tweet is a big fan). I wonder if this is the sort of thing they envision with 'Epic Destinies'?

Ken

 

[shilsen]

Personally, I've always thought D&D does mythic better than fantasy, especially when it comes to mechanics. For me, Cuchulainn is a much better analogue to D&D characters, especially once they are in double-figure levels, than Conan. As for mythic in feel, that's something which I think it can easily do, if the DM and players are interested in such an approach.

I should also note that what is mythic in one culture often varies drastically from mythic in another. I grew up reading the Mahabharata and the Iliad and then went on to a lot of other mythologies, and what's mythic in India is very different from what's mythic in Greece (and depending on whether you're looking at Hesiod or Homer, you're seeing very different conceptions of the mythic), which is very different from the mythic in Germanic or the Egyptian or the Celtic. So if one wants to do a mythic feel, one also needs to decide which kind of mythic feel to pull off.

Thanks for responding, keep up the insights.

My point really boils down to:

Can D&D, by the book, based on the assumptions of the game and not individual campaigns, support a game that makes epic levels more meaningful than just cosmic dungeoncrawls?

Yes.

If we look at the myths of our cultures these mythic heroes like Beowulf, Achilles, and Hercules are exceedingly powerful but their stories become foundational tales representing the values of their cultures. Should D&D RAW give help to DMs providing them with tools to make the PCs epic characters more than silly fantasy superheroes and instead icons upon whom faiths, knightly orders, empires and whatnot are built upon?

Your bias is showing

And again, the answer is "Yes", but it should be only one among many options, IMNSHO. There's nothing wrong or silly with playing epic characters as fantasy heroes, any more than it's silly to pretend to be an elf.

I believe that WoTC should push epic play in this direction as opposed to epic dungeoncrawls which IMO are, at this level banal in the extreme.

Here I disagree, because I don't think it is an "either-or" dichotomy. I find dungeon crawls boring in the extreme, even at low levels, but that doesn't mean I think WotC should design the game to cater only to my tastes. What I think WotC should do is have guidelines and suggestions in the DMG which will help DMs (especially those with little or no experience) to achieve the feel they want. Not just the feel Wyrmshadows wants

Also, should D&D transform paragon level heroes (lvls 10-20) into supernatually empowered superheroes who can rip down temples to evil dieties with their raw strength, wrestle dragons, shake the earth with the strike of their warhammer, etc. at epic levels (lvls 21-30)?

Isn't that what they already do?

 

[xechnao]

Basically, the idea behind a HeroQuest was that a PC or group of PCs entered the realm of Myth (the Hero Plane) during a special time (Sacred Time, usually) via special ceremonies, secret knowledge, and (very important) the support of their tribe or cult. They would then relive/re-enact some founding myth of their society/religion, taking the place of their deity or some other figure in the story of their religion, either maintaining the myth (dangerous) or attempting to change it (far more dangerous).

If you succeeded on a HeroQuest you could change some aspect of reality.

Reminds me of GoW.

 

[Bluenose]

This has been tried before, with mixed results.

Glorantha, the game world developed by Greg Stafford, has long had the idea that characters would go on 'HeroQuests' in really high-level play. There was a fair bit of support in the game setting for this, and basically no support in the rules (at least up to RuneQuest 3, the version put out by Chaosium). Chaosium promised a version of the rules that would support HeroQuesting for decades, and it became somewhat of a running joke among Gloranthaphiles as to when HeroQuest would come out.

Basically, the idea behind a HeroQuest was that a PC or group of PCs entered the realm of Myth (the Hero Plane) during a special time (Sacred Time, usually) via special ceremonies, secret knowledge, and (very important) the support of their tribe or cult. They would then relive/re-enact some founding myth of their society/religion, taking the place of their deity or some other figure in the story of their religion, either maintaining the myth (dangerous) or attempting to change it (far more dangerous).

If you succeeded on a HeroQuest you could change some aspect of reality.

For example (and this is all from memory) in Glorantha the Troll race suffers under a horrible curse called the Trollkin Curse, which causes all but a few of their young to be born as runts, in litters. The greatest of all the Trolls in troll society, in every troll religion, strive to undo this curse, which was inflicted on them by the being known as Nysalor the Bright or Gbaji the Deceiver, depending on who you ask, when the trolls, along with the Dragonnewts, withdrew from the council involved in Gbaji's creation.

Now, the rules are a bit sketchy on this, but it said that they try (and fail ) to undo this curse by HeroQuesting, which involves going to the Hero Plane/Mythic World and re-enacting/reliving the event which led to the trollkin curse, becoming their cultural patron/god during this trial, and (I guess) trying to do better than their god did.

In the world of Glorantha, all of the Troll Heros who have tried to lift the Trollkin Curse have failed.


I know that there are RQ fans currently working at WoTC , and that RQ was a fairly major influence on 3E (Johnathan Tweet is a big fan). I wonder if this is the sort of thing they envision with 'Epic Destinies'?

Ken

It's possible. RQ and now HQ do get into that level of event. Personally I think it's just as likely to have a background in BECM D&D, specifically the Master Set. There much of the activity was based on your path to Immortality, depending on what you chose. I can't remember the details, but there were several possible paths. I'd like to see more about the Epic Destinies. but I think there were some similarities in the ones from R&C and the originals.

 

[xechnao]

Here I disagree, because I don't think it is an "either-or" dichotomy. I find dungeon crawls boring in the extreme, even at low levels, but that doesn't mean I think WotC should design the game to cater only to my tastes. What I think WotC should do is have guidelines and suggestions in the DMG which will help DMs (especially those with little or no experience) to achieve the feel they want. Not just the feel Wyrmshadows wants

But 4e is tailored to be a miniature dungeon crawl game. And by dungeon I mean a map with squares, each square having its importance regarding its relation with the other squares.