Is D&D too complicated?

[hong]

It's great if you're a player. You really have the option to make a character that does things that you enjoy. In that respect, things are great.

Otherwise, you're a glorified operating system.

Pure and utter claptrap.

An executive summary of the session before last, in my campaign.

The group had just organised for the seizure of the estates of a noble, who'd been exposed as a practitioner of Eeeevil black magic. The estate, including a castle, passed into the ownership of the crown. The PCs were appointed as interim administrators, being the agents on the scene. (One of the players wanted to acquire a keep, a la 1E. This was a nifty way of handling it.)

On their way to the keep, they met a group of soldiers from one of the neighbouring lords who also wanted to claim it. Some roleplaying and one Intimidate check later, they scared off the soldiers, and continued on their way. They had another encounter in a village with some outlaws, ex-followers of the evil noble, whom they quickly dispatched.

Next day, the people in charge of the keep didn't want to let them in. Again, after some roleplaying and more Diplomacy and Intimidate checks, they were persuaded of the error of their ways.

Once in the keep, they explored a bit, and found a secret door leading to tunnels underneath. In the tunnels, they fought some undead, and then a nasty demon. One character nearly died, and another got drained a few levels.

In all that:
- The encounters were done on the fly. In particular, all the monsters in the underground tunnels were chosen on the spur of the moment.

- The Intimidate DCs were done on the fly. (If they'd botched the rolls, they'd still have taken possession of the keep, but some blood might have been spilt.)

- The Search DC to find the secret door was also made up on the fly. (Hint: it helps to know what Search skills your party has.)

- The consequences of bullying your neighbour's soldiers will be determined by me, without the need to consult any rulebook.

Do not project your insecurities on to everyone else out there.

 

[teitan]

What if, instead of doing a stripped down version of 3Ed/3.5Ed...

perhaps there should be a good shakedown adventure with pregenerated PCs from a variety of classes.

For $15-20, you get an adventure that takes a party of pregens through multiple character levels, has plenty of pointers for the DM (because he might be a novice, too). There would be a pregen PC from each PHB class and race (perhaps a few different combos), and some selected ones from OA, Savage Species, XPH, etc., each crossreferenced with the appropriate pages in the relevant rulebooks.

Except that brings in WAAAAY too many resources for a newbie. Outside of the resources you are talking about though, SS, OA, XPH etc. what you are describing is the NEW Basic boxed set. IT includes full rules to 3rd level from what I have heard and read in Dragon. Aside from that Savage Species sucked butt.

Jason

 

[Belen]

Do not project your insecurities on to everyone else out there.

You know, you almost created a post free of insults, then you caved to the baser instincts. To be expected, I suppose.

 

[Desdichado]

Except that this is all about NEW gamers. Sure we experienced gamers have no problem with it but Billy Kid might have a lot of problems if he tries to just jump into the game without being taught to play...

In all the threads that have come up over the years about celebrity gamers, this is the first I've ever heard that Billy the Kid was a gamer.

 

[hong]

You know, you almost created a post free of insults, then you caved to the baser instincts. To be expected, I suppose.

Insert generic snappy retort Mark II.


Hong "still bored" Ooi

 

[Desdichado]

In all that:
- The encounters were done on the fly. In particular, all the monsters in the underground tunnels were chosen on the spur of the moment.

- The Intimidate DCs were done on the fly. (If they'd botched the rolls, they'd still have taken possession of the keep, but some blood might have been spilt.)

- The Search DC to find the secret door was also made up on the fly. (Hint: it helps to know what Search skills your party has.)

- The consequences of bullying your neighbour's soldiers will be determined by me, without the need to consult any rulebook.

Do not project your insecurities on to everyone else out there.

Not too different from my last session in terms of style. In fact, it had to be; I had no idea what the PCs would be doing this session (what I thought we'd spend the session doing they still haven't gotten to.) In terms of knowing what Search skills your party has, it also helps to have a balanced party. Although not done on purpose, as near as I can tell, my three players are all fairly well rounded on skill representation. I have a Ranger-esque character with high wisdom who notices everything (and I'm anal about asking for Spot and Listen checks several times a session) I have a Rogue/Swashbuckler type fighter) who was trained as a spy, and although his wisdom (and WIS based skills) are low, his Intelligence and Search skill (as well as his languages and research abilities) are commensurately high. The last character is an ex-gladiator straight-up fighter from a race that has damage reduction, Con bonus, and all kinds of other things that makes him very difficult to take down.

Considering that the only magic in my campaign is CoC-style magic, that's about as well-balanced as you can get. Which means, for a winger DM (and I'm not talking about the 80s big hair rock band -- I've never heard that they play) I don't have to worry too much about them having someone competent at just about any situation I throw at them.

 

[Faraer]

As always, 'I can modify the innate tendencies and assumed play style of the ruleset' has little to do with whether D&D is too complicated for current and new players and DMs as a whole. System Still Matters.

 

[Desdichado]

System Still Matters.

Yes, I suppose it still does. However, one of the benefits, rather intentional or not, of d20's modularity is that it doesn't really matter very much.

 

[Faraer]

It doesn't matter so much for the portion of DMs (and to an extent, players) who self-consciously understand how the rules work and the attitudes and tactics they foster, and can then successfully hack the rules and compensate for the aspects of them they don't want. I don't think this is a very big portion.

 

[Belen]

Yes, I suppose it still does. However, one of the benefits, rather intentional or not, of d20's modularity is that it doesn't really matter very much.

It matters a great deal for newbies and those playing straight DnD.

I will agree with you that d20 can be very modular and incorporate a variety of games and play style. However, the entry vehicle, DnD, no longer serves as a simple way for new players to learn the game.