D&D 4E Is Essentials Compatible with Old School 4ed?

[The Little Raven]

Dice4Hire seems to be using "compatible" when he really means "interchangeable."

Compatibility is the ability for two (or more) things to exist together in harmony. The Essentials classes are fully capable of existing in harmony in a party with non-Essentials classes.

Interchangeability is being capable of using one thing in the place of another. Many powers and class features of the Essentials classes are not interchangeable with non-Essentials classes (yet).

So the Legacy4e/Essentials4e classes are fully compatible, but their parts are not fully interchangeable.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I guess I just have a problem with the Feats in Heroes of the Forgotten Lands. Like I stated in my original post: They are all rated gold on the optimization boards. HotFL feats just seem to make a lot of the original feats obsolete. I mean, sure, anyone can take them, and I guess consolidating feats is ingenious, but still. . . Thus, i guess I'm not so worried about the compatibility factor, rather, it just seems that Heroes of the Forgotten Land feats have overtook many of the old school feats and turned a lot of them into garbage. It's no big deal, but it just causes me dissonance for some reason- "Only fools take old school feats!" I have to look into it more, but, prima facie, old school 4ed is a bit complex, and Essentials seems basic, so mixing the two doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It just seems like the Essentials stuff would take over everything. But I have to look more into it.

 

[darkwing]

For what it's worth, my D&D Encounters group has a mix of some players using classes from Essentials and some using Legacy 4e classes. The group is a good group and the classes work well together.

 

[Obryn]

I guess I just have a problem with the Feats in Heroes of the Forgotten Lands. Like I stated in my original post: They are all rated gold on the optimization boards. HotFL feats just seem to make a lot of the original feats obsolete.

In only a few cases is this true... For expertise, it's clearly true - the Essentials expertise feats are pretty awesome, really, and have convinced me to stop handing it out for free. For the defense boosters, it's also clearly true - they can be taken earlier, and the Superior ones have awesome perks. Resilient Focus makes most saving throw feats obsolete, as well.

What Heroes of the Fallen Lands doesn't have are class- and race-specific feats which let a character become more specialized at their actual jobs. They're great simple mechanical bonuses, and well worth taking, but certainly don't render most old feats obsolete. (Only the ones they're strictly better than.)

-O

 

[Lord Ernie]

I guess I just have a problem with the Feats in Heroes of the Forgotten Lands. Like I stated in my original post: They are all rated gold on the optimization boards. HotFL feats just seem to make a lot of the original feats obsolete. I mean, sure, anyone can take them, and I guess consolidating feats is ingenious, but still. . . Thus, i guess I'm not so worried about the compatibility factor, rather, it just seems that Heroes of the Forgotten Land feats have overtook many of the old school feats and turned a lot of them into garbage. It's no big deal, but it just causes me dissonance for some reason- "Only fools take old school feats!" I have to look into it more, but, prima facie, old school 4ed is a bit complex, and Essentials seems basic, so mixing the two doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It just seems like the Essentials stuff would take over everything. But I have to look more into it.

While some of the Essentials classes have been simplified, that's not the case for all of them. Take the Mage, for instance, who is every bit as complex as the Wizard, if not more so.

As for the feats, two things: First off, they're not 'all' rated gold, not by far. Most Charop guides only rate the most relevant feats to the thing they're discussing, which is why most of the stuff from HotFL you see show up would be highly rated.

Second, take a look a the gold rated feats. One group is what I call the "Expertise +" group, which turns the necessary and boring Expertise feats into a group of feats that offers just that tiny bit of extra to make things more interesting. The second group is the defense related feats; now, they are powerful (Improved Defenses, yes please), but it is my belief they're mostly because of two reasons: first off, the designers have gained a better understanding of the game math over two years of experience; secondly, monster have become quite a bit more powerful since MM3, and this gives defense-oriented characters a chance to take that same step.

EDIT: Ninja'd. By an actual ninja. Blast it.

 

[Tiitha]

The point of the Essential classes is not to replace the old classes, but to give you more options, such as different roles for the classes. I believe the wizard in PH1 was a striker, while the wizard in HoFL is a controller. The options in Essentials are rather limited if you remove the original PHs from the game, so you don't need to worry about them being replaced. I see it a bit like the Powers books, only packaged as non-power specific and newbie friendly (and hopefully 3.5e friendly).

Even the class compendium won't replace the old HBs as it only covers so many classes, and even those powers might be different than Essentials and original powers.

 

[vagabundo]

I'm going to go all Zen your ass: Is a thing compatible with itself?

 

[scylis]

The point of the Essential classes is not to replace the old classes, but to give you more options, such as different roles for the classes. I believe the wizard in PH1 was a striker, while the wizard in HoFL is a controller. The options in Essentials are rather limited if you remove the original PHs from the game, so you don't need to worry about them being replaced. I see it a bit like the Powers books, only packaged as non-power specific and newbie friendly (and hopefully 3.5e friendly).

Even the class compendium won't replace the old HBs as it only covers so many classes, and even those powers might be different than Essentials and original powers.

The Wizard has always been a controller. Being the first controller, it had a bit of trouble "finding itself" early on, and a lot of people played it like it was a striker.

 

[ourchair]

I finely worked out what this question felt like to me. I feel the question in this thread title is like asking the following:

"Is Physics compatible with Higher Education?"

Of course it is - it is an example of such.

Will it restrict other choices?
Yes - some of your powers/options are restricted by choosing an Essensials Class, just like you don't expect a Physics Degree to help qualify for something that asks for a "Degree in Media Studies" or the fact that taking 'Physics with Astrophysics' (Knight vs PHB1 Fighter) would restrict your choice of topics to study in your third year as you would be forced to take at least some Astrophysics choices.

Are Essensials classes able to be taken with every other option available (Hybrids/MC)?
Not yet, just like sometimes trying to take a particular choice of degree options can cause your timetable to be unworkable. But give the profs some time and they may sort your timetable out for you (ala Class Compedium).

Do you have to avoid all Essensials classes to play with a PHB# class player?
No, no more than a person taking Physics needs to find a different university from their friend who decides to take English. You both do different stuff and get different options but you can hang out fine and the school rules still aplly to both of you where applicable.

You beat me to the analogy.

 

[chitzk0i]

...rather, it just seems that Heroes of the Forgotten Land feats have overtook many of the old school feats and turned a lot of them into garbage.

I think they made a concerted effort to have no noob traps. Alternately, why print feats no one will ever take?