Is Iron Heroes Dead

[Celebrim]

Well, Smeelbo's comment was directed at Mearls himself, not his works, as evidenced by the lead in "Mike Mearls is famous for. . ."

And as I said, "So?"

IANAL, but since Smeelbo is asserting that Mr. Mearls "is famous for" [not completing his commissions], I think that he (i.e., Smeelbo) needs to offer up proof of that, otherwise it seems that he's also treading dangerously close to libel.

Now that is a quite different assertion altogether. It is quite possible that Smeelbo is guilty of libel. I however have no basis for judging whether Smeelbo's claims are true or not, as I'm no expert in the professional lives of various game developers and couldn't tell you what any of them were famous within the game development community for. I presume that Smeelbo has (or believes he has) some sort of insider knowledge that I don't have (otherwise he wouldn't have made his assertion), and if he doesn't, then yes, he is guilty of libel. If I really cared about the truth of Smeelbo's assertion, then I would ask him to produce his evidence or at least relate his hearsay. However, I don't really care. His comment I hold in the Limbo of, "Things I've heard someone assert, but which I have no evidence to believe anything about.", pending me actually getting evidence one way or the other. My opinion of Sleebo is therefore held in the same Limbo, pending my conclusions about whether he spreads petty nasty lies or interesting insider information.

I however certainly don't judge him for making personal attacks. If someone said of me, "Celebrim is a pretentious, bombastic, highly competitive person who too lightly regards other peoples feelings until after the fact, and who thinks he's smarter than just about everyone else.", I'd be forced to say, "Oh, so you know me well then.", and perhaps if I thought them a friend, "If I'm being a jerk, do try to gently remind me of it." I don't think I'd see such a statement as an attack at all, as it's a largely true one and I'd have to have a bigger ego than I do to get offended by the truth being plainly told. I might possibly get offended by someone saying of me things that weren't true, particularly if the speaker knew them to be untrue, but that's a different matter.

It's one thing to say that IH seems incomplete*, but quite another to claim that X designer is notorious for padding his projects with filler, while failing to deliver on substantial content.

I suppose so. One is a vague wishy washy cowardly attack that communicates no real information but leaves the reader to insinuate whatever they might imagine it means, while protecting the writer from accusations of libel and slander by leaving lots of wiggle room and the other is a bold statement that at least communicates what the writer honestly believes. One statement can be defended against, and the other constitutes a accusation which if I tried to discredit it would be like trying to fight something made of smoke.

What I do find more rude than Smeelbo's unvarnished statement of his opinion of Mr. Mearls is your repeated use of phrases like, "treading dangerously close" and "perilously close to". I find it a nasty lawyerly weaselly habit, akin to, "I don't mean to be rude, but..." or "I don't mean to put myself forward, but...". He didn't tread dangerously close to making a personal attack. He made a personal attack. He didn't tread dangerously close to libel. He stated something that was either true or else - because it was false - it was libel. It's quite one thing to make petty nasty attacks. It's even worse IMO to make petty nasty attacks while pretending to not do so. So, perhaps before you judge someone else for being overly frank, or petty, or nasty, or harsh or whatever, understand that that too is just someone's opinion about what constitutes being rude and other people might find other personal habits more difficult to live with.

I assume that as a writer, Mr. Mearls has a pretty thick skin when it comes to critics. Speaking as someone who has written a thing or two from time to time, and created something by the sweat of my brow and blood of my hands, I'd find it just as hard to accept criticism of my work as criticism of myself (and maybe more so) and would perceive criticism of my work on the same emotional level (it would hurt) as criticism of myself. But I'd rather we all practiced at having a thicker hide and practiced less being outraged.

 

[SSquirrel]

*Seeing as how IH was marketed as an alternate PHB, not a stand alone game, even that complaint seems pretty ridiculous, however. IH wasn't without its flaws, but criticizing a product that was never meant to be a standalone game for not being a standalone game is absurd.

If there was to be no magic using allowed in the game, there should have been a statement of such somewhere. Instead the Arcanist was half-finished. All of Mearls's design diaries regarding IH were removed from Monte's website, I assume from the sale of IH to its current owner. I seem to recall an article from Mike where he apologized things were a bit incomplete, especially the caster, but he was heading off to work for WotC.

AN alternate PHB is supposed to contain everything you need to play the game. Period. That is how the PHB has been since 1E. You got magic items in the DMG (until 4E anyway), but those weren't really needed for play. So yeah, an alternate PHB should definitely cover all the bases, and you don't get a pass.

 

[Smeelbo]

As customers, it is our right to demand better!

As other posters in this thread have pointed out, Iron Heroes is incomplete, flawed, and does not perform as advertised. While full of clever ideas, Mearls in general does not finish his work having no incentive to do so once his contracted number of words have been produced.

In contrast, consider Monte Cooke, and in particular Ptolus. THAT was a polished piece of work.

I have every right to be harshly critical of Mike Mearls: he is a repeated disappointment. I am speaking not simply as a gamer, but as a buyer for game stores. It's frustrating to bring in material for my customers that appears so promising, but which is in fact not as advertised.

I've sold close to a thousand different role-playing titles over the years, and own hundreds of those myself. I've come to know a variety of writers to a greater or lesser degree, and I contend that my assertion about Mearls, that he puts most of his effort into the easy part, filling the word count, for which he is paid, and puts minimal effort into editing, testing, revising, and so on, is a reasonable characterization of his work. He is very clever fellow, and has a lot of great ideas, but I'd not count on him for finished work.

As customers, as purchasers of roleplaying materials, we have every right to call someone on doing a half-assed job. As a store buyer, I will speak with dollars. In this case of Mearls, it will mean examing his work more closely in the future before I buy for myself, or recommend to my customers.

Smeelbo

 

[1Mac]

My biggest problem with his work on IH is that it doesn't accomplish what I think it was implied it was setting out to accomplish. The IH product wasn't marketed on how well it would play from 1st-5th level, but on how well it would play from 10th level on. What I think most people wanted from the product could be summed up as 'grim-n-gritty low magic and speedy play at high level'. IH never felt like it could deliver.

I don't think your assessment of IH's promise is right. It was to be low-magic, but also high-powered, not "grim-n-gritty." It was supposed to feature non-casting classes that felt as powerful as many d20 casting classes. I think on this IH succeeded more than some posters are allowing.

It is true that a few people expected IH to be grim-n-gritty, perhaps because they conflated grim-n-gritty with low-magic. They were in the minority, so the fact that they assumed things that IH never let on is more their problem than it is IH's, or Mike Mearls'.

 

[SSquirrel]

As other posters in this thread have pointed out, Iron Heroes is incomplete, flawed, and does not perform as advertised.

In contrast, consider Monte Cooke, and in particular Ptolus. THAT was a polished piece of work.

If we accept Smeelbo's claim that IH is incomplete, flawed and doesn't perform as advertised, Ptolus would indeed be at the polar opposite. Man that book is so sweet

I don't think your assessment of IH's promise is right. It was to be low-magic, but also high-powered, not "grim-n-gritty." It was supposed to feature non-casting classes that felt as powerful as many d20 casting classes. I think on this IH succeeded more than some posters are allowing.

It is true that a few people expected IH to be grim-n-gritty, perhaps because they conflated grim-n-gritty with low-magic. They were in the minority, so the fact that they assumed things that IH never let on is more their problem than it is IH's, or Mike Mearls'.

Just for grins I popped over to IH and grabbed the product description for Iron Heroes:


Product Description
It is not the sword, but the arm that wields it. It is not the spell, but the mind that shapes it.
Live by the Sword!

Iron Heroes is a variant player's handbook in the tradition of Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. This exciting new game of heroic combat action is for skilled heroes who have no need for magic swords or arcane trinkets. Armed with their cunning, talent and unmatched bravery, they wade sword-first into a savage world of high adventure.

This hardcover provides 10 all-new core classes, an expanded feat system, new combat options, character traits, a new magic paradigm, and much more.
Iron Heroes does for d20 combat what Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved does for the d20 magic system. Modifications to the core system allow for high-adventure gaming where a character's talents, not his possessions, determine his abilities. Expansions to the core skill and feat subsystems allow for intriguing new tactics and exciting, cinematic battles. This exciting new game draws in both players looking for a new roleplaying game and those who want useful new rules for their d20 games. This complete handbook for players includes guidelines for incorporating its new rules and options and into d20 games and Arcana Evolved games.


High-adventure, not grim and gritty. Innate ability > gear, more cinematic battles thru new systems. That part of things actually sounds reasonably accurate from what I have read about IH over time. The problems became how things got as you went past a certain level (which was a typical D&D problem, esp in the 3.x era) and some sub-systems given what felt like a very slipshop handling, especially the lone magic class. Yes it is a more melee focused approach, but you don't get a reputation for high-quality, well thought-out and mechanically sound game design by dropping the ball in a significant way on various things.

 

[Elbeghast]

This thread demonstrates what is wrong with IH.

People actually don't play the game, or of ways to play the game and enjoy it, but prefer to ramble on and on about how "unfinished" it was, to talk about the mechanics and not the game, and get caught up about details rather than the awesomeness of the big picture.

This is in part due to the shape of the product itself and how it was marketed/discussed when it came out, make no mistake, i.e. that's not the fault of the posters here, don't misunderstand what I'm saying.

 

[SSquirrel]

If someone sells you a box of tools and says "Add my wrench to your game", but you look in the toolbox and find the wrench is bent and the warranty is expired, would you be upset?

I know, this will be blasted for not being a food analogy

 

[GodDelusion]

This thread has inspired me to make some changes to my next campaign. Currently, another player is running us through a 3.5 Ptolus campaign that is slowly moving to Pathfinder. However, I've had the itch for awhile to move back behind the screen. I had planned on running a Pathfinder/Wilderlands of High Fantasy campaign, but, I'm going to run an IH/Wilderlands campaign based on the Thomas Covenant books.

[sblock=IronHeroes]'The Ritual of Desecration' spell caused the magic of the world to be depleted (Magic is a finite resource). The lack of magical energies caused the Despiser to fall. Numerous millenniums have passed and the world has once again grown green. The human species has evolved and moved on without magic. But 150 years ago, a group of adventurers discovered an ancient site of power...a shrine dedicated to the ur-Lord.

In the shrine, an ancient text was discovered. The adventurers were unable to decipher much of the text, but one passage that was translated spoke of a great power that would bring peace and harmony to the land and her peoples...the Staff of Law. Initially, the city-states that bordered on the wastelands did not lay claim on the holy site, or the tome, but when a second decoded passage gave clear directions to an ancient magic known as 'The First Ward of Kevin's Law', the once friendly city-states became
sworn enemies overnight.

Each city-state claimed the site and tome as it's own, and bands of war parties from the city states clashed. Just as the human species was about to regain access to an ancient and powerful lore...they were torn apart by war. Now, city-states either are at open war with each other or skirmish for ownership of the tome. The holy site has seen been destroyed as militaries and adventurers combed the wastelands for other sites. This much is known: ancient man once lived as one city-state, in harmony
with nature and other races that have long since left The Land.

30 years ago, the holy text was stolen by an unknown source, and this caused tensions between the city-states to grow even more intense. The rulers of the larger city-states secretly met and an informal agreement was reached inwhich open war was to cease (The Duraminish Accord).
Any city-state that declared war or otherwise took actions that could be considered hostile against any other city-state was immediately considered an enemy to all city-states. Skirmishes continue, but, politics are now as much a factor as steel. 25 years ago, some of the races that once called The Land home began to return. Some of these races were good...many were not.

A race of humans, known as the Harachai, came down from their mountains with old myths that spoke of the Ur-Lord and his battles against an ancient arch-evil simply known as the Despiser. Giants crossed the seas and have made initial diplomatic treatsies with the city-states that border the
eastern coast. Thus far, the Giants claim to have no knowledge of the ancient city-state or the Ur-Lord.

A collection of species, collectively known as the Demondim, have emerged from The Down Below to assault the surface. Their attacks thus far have have been sporatic and uncoordinated and this has kept them from causing any real damage to humans.

The campaign begins as the PCs are all political prisoners of an undetermined city-state. This city-state has claimed that each of the PCs is a spy, and thus they forfeit any rights granted to war-time prisoners in the Duraminish Accord.[/sblock]

One of the biggest problems with IH was the fact that Mearls admitted the book was really incomplete. The magic section was especially lacking.

This is true...I also remember reading Mike's comments on this topic. However, there had been some very apt rewrites from the community, including a great version by Harry Pratt (Soulmage) that can be found here. There is also this outstanding resource.

So, while official support might be waning, there remains good support from engineering fans of the ruleset. I, for one, will keep the fire burning by introducing my group to IH in the next several months.

 

[ValhallaGH]

If someone sells you a box of tools and says "Add my wrench to your game", but you look in the toolbox and find the wrench is bent and the warranty is expired, would you be upset?

Funny, the wrench worked great all the way through level 15, when my campaign fell apart for scheduling reasons.

Iron Heroes works. It works well.
It is not (and has never claimed to be) gritty.
It is just as heroic and over-the-top as the core 3.5 rules. By design.

It just doesn't need that pesky magic junk to go nuts. You can use it if you want to, but when you can shoot a guy in the eye from three miles away (killing him) just because a) you are awesome b) you could see him for 30 seconds, the game really doesn't require magic. That quote in my sig (see the first spoiler) is quite serious.
After you punch the demon in the eye, and kill it that way, you headbutt a legion devil to death and take his sword. Because the freaking pit fiend bit your sword in two before you punched out his eyes. The big red jerk.

 

[jdrakeh]

AN alternate PHB is supposed to contain everything you need to play the game. Period. That is how the PHB has been since 1E.

Bullocks. For starters, the AD&D 1e PHB did not contain the to-hit charts for combat, which were essential to play. In point of fact, since the very beginning the rules for AD&D have been split across three books. An alternate PHB can, therefore, be considered to be a. . . er. . . PHB. The PHB is not — and never has been — the whole game.