Is it common for players to powergame?

[Oryan77]

I was worried that I was being really vague when asking for advice, but the replies have helped a lot.

The suggestion about asking "why" is tough. I'm always asking "why" for everything; even in everyday life. I'm always curious why people do or say certain things so I questions them about it. So that's the first thing I do when players ask about things reguarding the game. The problem is, and I assume it's like this 95% of the time at anyones table; the answer to the question "why" will usually be, "Because it's cool".

And that's the answer in this case. He's a fan of vampires...so he's tried hard to come up with ways to get his Fey'ri to be a vampire later on in the game. He also chose Fey'ri because it looks like a vampire. So his answer to the question "why" will naturally be, "Because I think vampires are cool and I would like to play one...they kick butt!" He may come up with a secondary reason related to roleplaying and character history only to help support his need to play the PC build...but the real answer is "because it's cool". I think that's our answer for doing anything in an RPG.

When I think about this also (I could be wrong though)...it assures me even more that he's powergaming because he didn't just create a PC who was a Vampire Spawn in a way that would allow him to be at the correct ECL due to level adjustment. He chose a powerful race with a class and THEN wanted to beef it up more by trying to become a vampire later on. So it's not like he just wanted to play a Vampire for the sake of playing a Vampire (he could've picked a race with no LA without taking a class, and then adjust the ECL for the Vampire template )....but the way he went about it makes it seem more like he wants to play an "uber-vampire" (which I assume is powergaming).

 

[Geoff Watson]

My characters have been pretty good about not trying to powergame, at least not how I define it.

* I have a fighter who took improved trip (with a guisarme) before taking power attack.

How is that not powergaming? Improved Trip is much better than Power Attack if the character is wielding a guisarme.

Geoff.

 

[random user]

The suggestion about asking "why" is tough. I'm always asking "why" for everything; even in everyday life. I'm always curious why people do or say certain things so I questions them about it. So that's the first thing I do when players ask about things reguarding the game. The problem is, and I assume it's like this 95% of the time at anyones table; the answer to the question "why" will usually be, "Because it's cool".

But if one of your NPCs asks "why", "because it's cool" won't cut it when they have to respond in character.

How is that not powergaming? Improved Trip is much better than Power Attack if the character is wielding a guisarme.

Sorry I should have been more clear; in my campaign there are no orcs, goblins, or kobolds (or if there are they are hiding well). The player knew that he would be facing lots of monsters where trip was useless or tough (I told him this when he ran his idea by me), but decided to take it anyways just because he had never played a character like that.

Also, trip is great when it works, but also increases variability. From a min/max metagame standpoint I would never take improved trip because of the varience, but that's a personal viewpoint (that you should take things which increase your power but not your variability) and not one I think is commonly shared.

 

[FireLance]

I think powergaming is quite antithetical to heroism. Heroism is self-sacrifice and perseverance against odds; powergaming is trying to 'win' the game by making your character as invulnerable as possible before play even begins.

I believe we may have slightly different definitions of heroism and powergaming. To my mind, they are not mutually exclusive, and one applies to the character and another to the player. The character does things which are heroic, and the player powergames to ensure that the character can do so consistently. As I mentioned, it is not a bad thing to want a competent character, as a competent character can do more. Certainly, it takes a great deal of courage, and some would say heroism, for Joe Commoner to stand up to the Dread Black Knight, but he isn't likely to last more than six seconds against him. Realistically, only Peter Paladin has a chance to defeat him in combat.

For a real-life example, consider policemen, fire-fighters and those who risk their lives to save others on a regular basis. Are their actions any less heroic because they have been specially trained and have the proper equipment for their jobs ("powergamed", if you will)? On the contrary, some would consider it downright irresponsible if they did not. While we salute the heroism of those who have gone above and beyond the call of duty, and accomplished great things that they were untrained and ill-equipped for, we should recognize that not everyone can perform heroic acts consistently.

D&D takes the approach that the characters are better than "normal" people. They are more naturally talented (have better ability scores on average), and have better training (PC classes vs NPC classes). They are mechanically heroic in the sense that they can accomplish more than the average commoner on the basis of the rules and dice. Powergaming enhances this aspect of the character. However, to have a character that is heroic in all senses of the word, it is up to the player to add self-sacrifice, perseverence against odds, and other related characteristics. This is where role-playing comes in.

The current vogue is 'all play styles are equally valid'. I don't agree; I think powergaming is bad, because the kid-in-candy-store, power-ups, 'levelling up', 'character build' mentality is a shallow, self-aggrandizing one that gets some people quick thrills at the expense of long-term enjoyment and that of other players.

Too much candy is bad for you. You can get through life without candy, and you'd probably be healthier, too. Still, it's nice to have candy once in a while, as part of a balanced diet.

 

[ForceUser]

Powergaming is a lot of things to a lot of people. To some it is abhorrent, to others amusing or frustrating; to others, it is simply how things are done. To me, it's passe. Powergamers are missing the point of what gaming means to me as a DM. But what is powergaming, exactly? It is a brazenly flippant response to a DM's hard work, it is a perceived imbalance in the application of game mechanics, and it is a wrong-headed approach to participating in RPGs.

Powergaming is going overboard in building an efficient character and with a general disregard for the campaign milieu. If everyone is playing simple human single-classed characters in a low-magic game based on medieval Europe, and you insist on playing a spiked chain-wielding half-blue dragon/half-troll fighter/sorcerer/spellfire wielder from Faerun, you're powergaming; unless, of course, there is a specific agreed-upon story reason for why your character exists.

Powergaming is based on perception. Take that same half-dragon and throw him in a mid-level Planescape game focused on Faerunian intrigue, and he's no longer out of the ordinary, especially if everyone is playing similarly tweaked-out characters.

Powergaming is the opportunistic player's approach to your campaign. If the player comes to you and says that based on your setting he has this cool but unusual character idea, and asks if you can work something out with him, he's not powergaming; he's looking for a unique niche in your campaign world, and he's excited about participating in the story of your setting. If, on the other hand, he starts asking for unusual or special concessions before he even bothers to ask what the setting is like, or if he twinks out an egregiously disproportionate mechanical monster using five different sourcebooks with no regard for setting or story, or without even giving thought to a name for his character; then he's powergaming.

Powergaming is not unusual among some of the guys I game with, but it is lessening as the players realize the basic fact that no matter how twinked out their character is, the DM can always use tougher monsters with almost no extra effort. As long as the DM continues to emphasize story over mechanics, the powergaming will take a back seat. And if not, you can always find other players more in line with your own gaming style.

 

[Tangent Loki]

I'd also like to chime in that there are multiple types of powergaming.

We have the hack and slash style where they are beefed up for cheese, where manipulating the rules is numero uno (bag of rats anyone?). I dont like this style because it often makes no conceptual sense (let me see you spin around, and cleave through a million tiney bodies to hit boss guy millions of times...WTF?)

Then we have the conceptual powergamer. They come up with an idea e.g. I want to make someone who is the best jumper ever, it'll lend an epic heroic feel to him so he's good at what he does. So then they progress to their cool mechanic as far as they can, roleplaying may be equal to mechanical interest or much lower.

I prefer the latter. I myself often get a character concept and then trick it out so that I can play with some cool abilities, that all have roleplaying perspective, and help me survive any of those deadly encounters that we may run across.

In fact I'd like to posit that most powergaming characters are one trick ponies. If you make a bag of rats figher you've spent all your feats there, while it may be hard to deal with BBEG's will need to cope and adjust to his trick.

I wouldn't deny a player anything RAW, given the understanding that I will adapt and combat any sort of extreeme imbalance towards the rest of the group, if they are not having cobat fun because of him. (some people like to play robin to batman and enjoy seeing a monster rip it up, but if this is detracting from their own enjoyment you can bet there'll be some DM balancing effects happening, like against bag of rats maybe a first action fireball in his vicinity, or some other way to deal with the rats. )

But I think that powergaming is a natural extension of some people's experience, in any computer/tabletop/card game you try to be as elegant and effective as you can be; DND is a game as well, so in character development it gets the same treatment is designing up the most competitive and survivable character you would like to play. However it is more about fun. It could create some really interesting roleplaying situations and adventures to have a party vampire, it could also lead to tantamount disaster.

I'd talk with him and the party over it. How do you plan on contacting a vampire (side-quest?) getting safely bitten but not thralled? How will this affect the party? Are they willing to do night only adventures? How will you get from plane to plane in the daytime? How will this effect the parties ability to do battle, roleplay? How can it effect business transactions ( who would deal with a vampire in the group) and lastly would the party as an entity be fore this, are their characters ani-undead? Do they mistrust his character? would they when he changes?

All valid questions to go over, if the party is all for it it can definitely help to shape the way the game moves, Vampires after him, or undead hunters, he cant be bothered during the day. He has special abilities, he has to feed, but through all of this remain goodly aligned (remember good campaign right?)

Any way those are just some tray thoughts, sorry for it being a long post...

 

[Jakar]

I really do not have a problem with some power gaming. It all depends on a lot of factors.

Our DM, while being really good at the job, is a very hard dm. He has no whims about killing characters off at all. So we now tend to make them a little more survivable, because we know the bad guys we will be coming up will be using some hoopie stuff, so when in Rome....

How is that not power gaming? Improved Trip is much better than Power Attack if the character is wielding a guisarme.

Geoff.

I do have a problem with people saying that. I have heard people say so many times that they are power gaming when they take a particular feat. If they are there, why not use them to the best effect. If a feat works better with one weapon than another, do you not think that the person would more realistically (oh no, I used the r word) than with one that it does not work as well with?

 

[NPC]

I call it "weaseling".

When someone wants "something extra" they're being a weasel and I call them on it.

While roleplaying, that's fine. No problem trying to negotiate to get a deal. But when a player tries to get an advantage that's not RAW . . . weasel!

A weasel and a powergramer are two completely different animals to me.

"Pop pop goes the weasel the weasel . . ."

 

[Carpe DM]

Instead of pursuing the "powergamers are disruptive / restrictive DMs lack imagination" debate, I'll try to be constructive:

If you suspect you're a bit of a powergamer, take responsibility, but don't wimp out. The following steps can help a powergamer fit in.

1. Design a strong unified character concept to go with your unstoppable build.

2. Give your character build to your DM at the beginning of the campaign. That will prevent unpleasant surprises -- like the DM deciding that your build is "too powerful" in the middle of the campaign. Not cool. And, if the DM is too restrictive during that initial conversation, you know you are in the wrong campaign. There are lots of DMs with imagination out there, find one of those.

3. Identify what your character is good at, and do it well. When the time comes for other activities you may be less maximized. Even if you do other activities equivalently well, back off and let other characters dominate gameplay that does not involve your specialty.

For example: if you're a combat munchkin, have fun and boot head during fights. But when it comes to other areas make sure the other characters have a moment to shine. If you do, you'll be rewarded: instead of resenting your prowess in combat, your teammates will come to view your build as a group benefit.

In other words, it's ok to be the best at what you do. Just make sure other people get a turn.

4. Don't give in. If your enjoyment of the game is, in part, carefully crafting characters, don't put up with a game that doesn't let you do what you enjoy. Find another.

very best,

Carpe

 

[Geoff Watson]

Sometimes it's so easy to powergame that you do it accidentally. For instance, my current character was designed for versatility rather than power (barbarian/shaman with average stats) but consistently dishes out huge amounts of damage.

Geoff.