Is less more when it comes to RP?

DSRilk

First Post
3e was a computer program. It had rules for creating everything and then processed those rules in certain patterns to create things. Monsters were a prime example of this. Pick a base race, add a template perhaps, add racial levels, add character levels... and "luckily" there were charts for doing all these things. But it wasn't just creatures, everything felt this way to me. Skills included such things as professions, crafting, and other rules that never saw the light of day in my games. Spell slots were enhanced so that characters could cast more often, but still within the given constraints. Cantrips were added as spells for those times when you needed a worthless spell like "clean undergarments." In short, there was a rule for everything. And it was good. You could create new cantrips and spells (there were rules for that, too). You could create new aberations (by following the handy "this is what it means to be an aberation at any given level" chart). You could create new uses for skills so that there were mechanics and DCs for impressing people using sleight of hand.

In theory, the game was full of rules that allowed you to RP - combat be damned. And that's how I game. I ran a weekly game for a year and the PCs got into maybe 3 combats. The rest was all RP via NPC interaction. What I found was that the system seemed far more binding than it was helpful. I won't get into the splitting combat vs non-combat skills and abilities argument here. Instead, I'll get to my point. In 3e, I felt like there were subsystems used to help define characters in an RP style, and I was less than impressed with the result. I ended up just winging most everything - I gave PCs powers when I wanted, gave casters numerous minor abilities to represent things they should be able to do, and gave characters extra skill points to spend only on certain skills to make up for the fact that some characters didn't get enough skill points to get useful skills, much less RP-oriented skills like knowledges and such. I also removed the skill cap for some skills.

When I first saw 4e, I thought "wow, this is nothing but a set of combat rules." I recently started to wonder, however, if this is not actually a better thing for RP than the in depth rules we had before. Here's why. In 4e, nearly everything is an abstraction or concept. Movement turned circles into squares. Minions turned creatures into paper (but you could only encounter them if you were near their level). "Damage" can be "healed" with a pep talk. In that sense, aren't all skills and abilities then abstractions in a sense as well? The designers have already talked about how you get guidelines for creating creature stats that will challenge characters instead of rules for creating creature types. More than that though, I'm talking about powers and skills. By only putting skills that will see use in my game, it feels more freeing to be able to say, "yeah, you were an apprentice blacksmith, so you know that the placement of the forge doesn't make any sense." No skill was necessary, so characters can have whatever background they want without me having to worry about balancing mechanics just so the PC can be an ex-apprentice blacksmith - a fact that will only rarely come up. Also, powers can be seen as more of an abstraction as well. You don't need the wizard to create a new cantrip that allows him to grow a single rose from a seed before the princess's eyes. For one thing, given the way the mechanics for powers work, it's impractical - which then frees us up to instead just look at what the character CAN do. He's got an ability that allows him to entangle a foe with vines? Then he can make plants grow. And so sure, why not, he can grow a rose from a seed just by holding it and chanting a bit.

Yes, I'm really just saying, "hey, without rules we can just make stuff up." And yes, we could certainly just make stuff up before. However, back then you were breaking rules to do it. You were expanding skill caps. You were giving characters more "spells per day" of a certain type. It's like when you're in creative writing class and the professor says, "pick a topic from the following list." Instinctively, most of us read the list. Could you convince the professor to let you write on whatever topic you wanted? Probably. But because there is already a set of rules for writing your paper, it doesn't feel the same as being told, "there are no rules - whatever goes. Just figure out something that makes sense and feels right."

So, is less really more?
 

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Connorsrpg

Adventurer
For a RPG, especially outside of combat = a big YES from me. :)

I actually hope the players roleplay those powers more now. Their names and short descriptions should certainly help.

And whislt a big fan of 'background abilities/skills' I was always upset that the players rarely chose them, b/c they took away from combat powers. Who could blame them I guess. Now there is more chance to ham up their background abilities.
 

greyscale1

First Post
Basically, yes. I agree with you.

Insofar as much as that rules governing how many horses dragons require to be appeased, and other such silly charts only take power away from the DM.

However, while in 4e, less is more. There are two related boons it also comes with. That is, the rules are extremely modular and easier to homebrew for, and the skill challenge system, which to me seems like it will be a perfect fit for fast and loose mechanics when (and sometimes they do) mechanics really need to be applied.
 

Solid, good, black and white rules are important critical for character creation and combat. Outside of that though, yes, roleplaying seems to survive better with a loser system, but relies more on player/GM skill.
 

ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
I disagree. A sandbox is fun because it has sand in it. Remove the inside and it's just a big wide empty box. That's dirty. And you can't turn it upside down and make an awesome base out of it*. I guess what I'm saying is, less isn't always more, because sometimes, it's...well, it's less. And while you can have fun adventures with your imagination in an empty sandbox, you could have that same fun most anywhere; If I wanted to play with sand, I'd rather play in a full sandbox.


*Let it be known, my bases were awesome.
 

Korgoth

First Post
DSRilk said:
When I first saw 4e, I thought "wow, this is nothing but a set of combat rules." I recently started to wonder, however, if this is not actually a better thing for RP than the in depth rules we had before. Here's why. In 4e, nearly everything is an abstraction or concept. Movement turned circles into squares. Minions turned creatures into paper (but you could only encounter them if you were near their level). "Damage" can be "healed" with a pep talk. In that sense, aren't all skills and abilities then abstractions in a sense as well? The designers have already talked about how you get guidelines for creating creature stats that will challenge characters instead of rules for creating creature types. More than that though, I'm talking about powers and skills. By only putting skills that will see use in my game, it feels more freeing to be able to say, "yeah, you were an apprentice blacksmith, so you know that the placement of the forge doesn't make any sense." No skill was necessary, so characters can have whatever background they want without me having to worry about balancing mechanics just so the PC can be an ex-apprentice blacksmith - a fact that will only rarely come up. Also, powers can be seen as more of an abstraction as well. You don't need the wizard to create a new cantrip that allows him to grow a single rose from a seed before the princess's eyes. For one thing, given the way the mechanics for powers work, it's impractical - which then frees us up to instead just look at what the character CAN do. He's got an ability that allows him to entangle a foe with vines? Then he can make plants grow. And so sure, why not, he can grow a rose from a seed just by holding it and chanting a bit.

Yes, I'm really just saying, "hey, without rules we can just make stuff up." And yes, we could certainly just make stuff up before. However, back then you were breaking rules to do it. You were expanding skill caps. You were giving characters more "spells per day" of a certain type. It's like when you're in creative writing class and the professor says, "pick a topic from the following list." Instinctively, most of us read the list. Could you convince the professor to let you write on whatever topic you wanted? Probably. But because there is already a set of rules for writing your paper, it doesn't feel the same as being told, "there are no rules - whatever goes. Just figure out something that makes sense and feels right."

So, is less really more?

Yes, I agree. When I was reading this part I thought "You have rediscovered Old School." Your blacksmith example was perfect. That was just a concept thing that somebody put on his sheet - "former apprentice blacksmith". You didn't take Feat, you didn't put points in Profession or Craft or Motor Skills or whatever... that was just something that you made up and that was that. And sometimes it would help or hinder you somehow, and that was just part of the freewheeling fun of it all.

4E has a big emphasis on combat rules, and making combats be a tactically interesting and deep exercise. I'm anxious to see whether they've succeeded. But the fewer rules for non-combat stuff the better. Outside of combat, I prefer things to be much more freeform.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Korgoth said:
Yes, I agree. When I was reading this part I thought "You have rediscovered Old School." Your blacksmith example was perfect. That was just a concept thing that somebody put on his sheet - "former apprentice blacksmith". You didn't take Feat, you didn't put points in Profession or Craft or Motor Skills or whatever... that was just something that you made up and that was that. And sometimes it would help or hinder you somehow, and that was just part of the freewheeling fun of it all.

4E has a big emphasis on combat rules, and making combats be a tactically interesting and deep exercise. I'm anxious to see whether they've succeeded. But the fewer rules for non-combat stuff the better. Outside of combat, I prefer things to be much more freeform.
Yesss. Come to the dark side, you have.


Or... gone to the dark side, I have?


Crap
 

muffin_of_chaos

First Post
ProfessorCirno said:
I disagree. A sandbox is fun because it has sand in it. Remove the inside and it's just a big wide empty box. That's dirty. And you can't turn it upside down and make an awesome base out of it*. I guess what I'm saying is, less isn't always more, because sometimes, it's...well, it's less. And while you can have fun adventures with your imagination in an empty sandbox, you could have that same fun most anywhere; If I wanted to play with sand, I'd rather play in a full sandbox.
*Let it be known, my bases were awesome.
I'd rather explore the whole playground, myself.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Fundamentally the rules should only cover the things that they need to.

And that means they cover the things that matter.

And the things that matter are things where the consequences are all different and all fun.
 

Byronic

First Post
I don't know, I quite like having stats as they shape what the character can or cannot do. And all it really took was one or two points. If you were fighter who used to be a blacksmith apprentice then I'd say "put a point in blacksmith and we'll use Strength as the ability score" and if it ever came up he could use it. I think I might miss that in 4.0. Perhaps I'll give my players some spare skillpoints for things that simply aren't covered by the rules.

Still, let's give the new edition a fair chance. Perhaps if something really came up we could always use ability score + level bonus for things the character *should* be able to do.
 

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