D&D 4E Is Multi-Attacking Really Control? A different Fireball

[Larrin]

stunning with a level 7 encounter is above power-level, dazing until start of your next turn would not be.

I think the reason controllers got AE in their tool-kit came down to:
1.They wanted wizards to be controllers
2.Wizards get AE spells
3.They could never really nail down what made a controller a controller anywhere near as precisely as they did in the other three roles

So since no one could say AE wasn't control, and the poster child of controllers had damage only AE, AE became control. And I can say from experience, it worked. It worked best when some status effects were tacked on to the AE along with respectable damage. It worked less well when it was just damage and they chickened out of giving it enough damage to make it a good spell (like fireball) because that was striking, but even then it still worked. The worst actually seemed to be little to no damage even when paired with darn good control, people just got a little sad not to do damage in my experience.

Is AE damage really control? Hard to say, but AE status effects is control gold, and not having damage with it is psychologically detrimental to the power. It's not bad for the classes that have it, but I don't think it weakens control for other roles to get some as well.

 

[Garthanos]

stunning with a level 7 encounter is above power-level, dazing until start of your next turn would not be.

Thanks I am agreeing when I was thinking about it... I think I overlooked it being an encounter power on several points.

I think the reason controllers got AE in their tool-kit came down to:
1.They wanted wizards to be controllers
2.Wizards get AE spells
3.They could never really nail down what made a controller a controller anywhere near as precisely as they did in the other three roles

So since no one could say AE wasn't control, and the poster child of controllers had damage only AE, AE became control. And I can say from experience, it worked. It worked best when some status effects were tacked on to the AE along with respectable damage. It worked less well when it was just damage and they chickened out of giving it enough damage to make it a good spell (like fireball) because that was striking, but even then it still worked. The worst actually seemed to be little to no damage even when paired with darn good control, people just got a little sad not to do damage in my experience.

Is AE damage really control? Hard to say, but AE status effects is control gold, and not having damage with it is psychologically detrimental to the power. It's not bad for the classes that have it, but I don't think it weakens control for other roles to get some as well.

There was precedent for it creating some control in the past weak control but such is ... and I think the visuals of a power that induces those who save against it to move, and a sulfurous smoldering spot makes putting some real control on Fireball a definite fun bit.

Adding control movement on a save could even work as a normal.

Or anyone could get a bonus on their appropriate DEFENSE if they move away from a centered AOE as a reaction.

 

[Garthanos]

Oh, I think there could be, especially if Blaster were broken out from Controller, leaving controllers all about conditions.

I kind of like that the Blaster class feature gets more damage on the above fire ball and the Controller gets larger area or larger duration for its zone.

For instance, implement mastery could have added or upgraded condition riders on powers, using obvious upgrade paths like Slowed>Immobilized>Restrained or Dazed>Stunned>Dominated. Or a "rune of power" could add a specific condition to powers based on keywords (Your encounter powers with the Necrotic Keyword Weaken for a round, Dailies do so Save Ends).

A generic Blaster feature could be into increase the size of Bursts by 1 and Blasts by 2.


I've thought about that before in the context of consolidating powers by Source instead of class.

Controller wants more space too... the Blaster wants more damage even more... because well Timmy likes Damage

 

[Garthanos]

Or anyone could get a bonus on their appropriate DEFENSE if they move away from a centered AOE as a reaction.

So what price the reaction except for their position?

 

[Xeviat]

Oh, I think there could be, especially if Blaster were broken out from Controller, leaving controllers all about conditions.

For instance, implement mastery could have added or upgraded condition riders on powers, using obvious upgrade paths like Slowed>Immobilized>Restrained or Dazed>Stunned>Dominated. Or a "rune of power" could add a specific condition to powers based on keywords (Your encounter powers with the Necrotic Keyword Weaken for a round, Dailies do so Save Ends).

A generic Blaster feature could be into increase the size of Bursts by 1 and Blasts by 2.


I've thought about that before in the context of consolidating powers by Source instead of class.

I would love to consolidate powers by source instead of class. I'd even go as far as have a lot of overlap in the spells, like how Cleric and Wizard have spell overlap in all the other editions (why make dispel magic 5 times?). That's actually been my desire for a kitbashed 4E; less classes, choice of roles within the classes, classes each have a unique mechanic/play style/mini game.

The only "universal" controller feature I've ever thought of would be a saving throw penalty on their effects, so a controller's riders would last longer. Anything more gets complicated or needs to be specific (you could give a generic rider to a Controller Wizard who specializes in Cold damage easily, but a generic utility wizard would be harder).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, [MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION], HoML does mostly group powers by source, though it doesn't really outlaw 'cross sourcing' by gaining boons which provide powers outside your source. In that sense source is a bit more 'thematic' than it is in 4e.

Anyway, I think AoE damage IS control, very much so! However, I think wizards could profitably have gone much more in the direction of terrain effects, like walls and such. Forcing some monster to decide between standing around on the wrong side of a zone and getting shellacked by the Ranger or biting some damage and a moderate status effect to cross the zone is GREAT control. Obviously it is somewhat situational, but still cool. Maybe by giving wizards the class feature of 'flexing' their power picks more easily would have been a nice complement to that, so you might be able to choose between two different options depending on what the terrain looks like. Maybe make them burn an AP to swap a daily, and a minor action to swap an encounter power, something like that (again HoML sort of does something like this by use of VPs).

 

[jimbrooks]

I also feel the same way. Lightning needs to be made more controllerish tool.

 

[Garthanos]

I also feel the same way. Lightning needs to be made more controllerish tool.

I did make a more controllerish lightning bolt up thread

 

[Garthanos]

Reminder to self build the Bat Guano Controller Fireball and Lightning Shock Bolt Variant actually in Character Builder.

 

[Garthanos]

An homage fireball.