D&D 4E Is Pathfinder Combat As Slow as 4e?

[Stan Shinn]

I've been interested in trying out Pathfinder. I'm experienced with fast combat games like 0e and 1e D&D, Savage Worlds, etc.

This post gave me pause though:
Destination Unknown: I broke up with 4e this morning.

I tried 4e once at a D&D gameday. Combat took 40 minutes for one encounter and seemed to me to be monotonous. Maybe it was because I was a newbie and had to be couched on what to do? In any case, I am wondering if combat in Pathfinder is about the same as 4e, or if it is somehow different, somehow faster or more interesting.

Thoughts?

-- Dwilimir

 

[The_Gneech]

Have you ever played 3.x? Because it's pretty similar to that.

If not, I'd say compared to 4E the overall fights are shorter, but you go longer in between individual actions as a player, since you're not constantly shifting, interrupting, and so forth.

A fight that would take an hour in 4E will probably take ~45 min in PF, but instead of your character doing something every other minute, you're doing something every three minutes. (Depending on the GM ... in my group we generally give each other suggestions, help each other keep track of conditions and buff/debuffs, move miniatures on the board for the GM, that kind of thing, so most players stay pretty involved even when it's not their turn.)

-The Gneech

 

[billd91]

Hmmm... interesting blog post and a bit surprising. 4e was designed with the idea of individual turns taking less time than in previous editions. Powers were more tightly written for less ambiguity in the rulings and were designed to fit on an easy-reference card for fewer rule lookups. The rules themselves are written to be simpler to use as well and, I think, well formatted in the PH to make them easy to find and use. So I'm a bit surprised that the blogger is critiquing that aspect of the 4e rules. Many of the complaints I read (and agree with based on my 4e experiences) have more to do with the combats dragging on because of the durability of combatants and relatively low damage dealt out. Quicker turns but many more of them.

That said, PF can take a while to run combats as well. Individual turns may require more DM adjudication (and thus time) particularly with spells that have more broad and open-ended descriptions, but enemies can fall fast and furiously (as can PCs). If that appeals to you more than your 4e experience, then you've got little to lose by giving it a try, particularly when the PF core rules PDF is only $10.

One major difference between 1e and PF that will affect combat resolution time is the emphasis on tactical movement and abilities. PF, being based on 3.5, incorporates a lot more of that than 1e did. If you use those elements and a playing grid, combats will take longer, though perhaps not as long as they might in 4e. But for the most part, they take longer really based on the amount of care players take in plotting their moves. Some players like taking the time for superior tactical play, others not so much. That's a balance that's hard for a set of game rules to get right for all players and styles of play.

Personally, I prefer PF over 4e. I like the more open-ended aspect of magic and actions that can be taken by players. I like many of the other design decisions in PF over 4e. But it's true that combats do take longer than they did back in 1e/2e days. The tactical focus is different and, to a point, I'm OK with that and can accept the differences in play time.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

I play almost exclusively online these days, so it's hard for me to tell . . . that said, I recently got together with a few old friends and ran an adventure. Four PCs vs. a Summoner and her Eidolon - all 8th level. The combat took about four hours.

That said, a few things should be noted:

1. As a GM, I'm used to online play and having time to look up references for rulings.
2. The combat was anything but monotonous - the Summoner was well prepared and the combat area was huge and complex. The PC's and the Summoner both took full advantage of the terrain, mixing up tactics and exploring many of the new teamwork feats and maneuvers.
3. We very rarely get to game face to face (about once a year); this was as much about getting together and socializing as it was about getting through the adventure (of course, IMHO gaming is a social activity . . .)

 

[IronWolf]

I certainly think combat length in Pathfinder will be longer than 1st Edition and such, but it is a trade off in that you get extra options and such in Pathfinder, so that helps.

Our group does not find length of combat a problem in Pathfinder. With that said though I believe how long combat takes varies significantly from group to group more than system to system when comparing to 4e. There are many threads about combat length floating around general where people say it takes too long in 3.x and others saying their combats fly right by. Same for 4e is seems. So to me, this indicates combat length, to a degree, is more dependent on gaming groups.

Our group moves through a typical combat pretty quickly. I would say someone taking one minute or longer to decide what they were going to do is the exception, not the rule.

Now we do have an occasional longer combat. Our last Kingmaker session had a long combat, but there was a whole myriad of combatants that entered at various times and the battle was taking place in several different locations on the battle map. It was supposed to be a significant encounter and was the longest of the campaign so far. The rest of them have been pretty short.

 

[The_Gneech]

Yeah, the complexity and challenge level of the encounter makes a big difference in PF -- a handful of orcs will be chopped up in a matter of minutes, whereas a necromancer riding a dragon being backed up by a cluster of mohrgs and spectres will take all night.

The thing with 4E by comparison, from what I've experienced of it anyway, is that even the low-level encounters start complex and just get moreso. That seems to be the biggest difference in how it flows. 4E tries to make every fight a showstopper, whereas PF assumes most fights will be fairly easy, with the occasional giant brawl for the climax.

-The Gneech

 

[frankthedm]

I'm experienced with fast combat games like 0e and 1e D&D,

Tactical placement of individual minis slows RPGs down to a crawl. It has many benefits, chiefly in killing PCs who are too gung ho and move out too far, but this comes at a great cost in time. The Post 2000 D&D rulesets are quite married to tactical placement as well so character abilities can be nullified if tactical placement is not used. 4E exasperated the issue because the Devs wanted to make sure monsters would not get one-shotted unless they were supposed to get one-shotted, ensuring every non minion foe can eat multiple hits.

 

[DaveMage]

In 3.x, Pathfinder, and 4E, the combat encounter was emphasized much more greatly than in 0e, 1E, and 2E. If you are more interested in getting through an adventure than spending the time in tactical combat, then the eariler editions are much better. If you enjoy the tactical nature of RPG combat, then the later editions are better. However, you can "cheat" in 3.x and Pathfinder by eliminating minis & the battlemat. Combat is much quicker without them. I don't play 4E, so I have no idea what eliminating the battlemat would do to that game.

 

[IronWolf]

However, you can "cheat" in 3.x and Pathfinder by eliminating minis & the battlemat. Combat is much quicker without them. I don't play 4E, so I have no idea what eliminating the battlemat would do to that game.

We do this as well. We do not break out the minis and battlemats for all combat encounters. It does help keep things moving when setting up minis and getting them positioned could take longer than just running the combat. It works well for our group.

 

[Crothian]

I've found that groups that are slow in 4e or 2e or even Vampire will be slow in whatever game they play even games that are said to have fast combat like Parnaioa and Savage Worlds and Risus. Some people are just slow at what they do and things take longer and some people are quick no matter if it is Pathfinder or Hero or GURPs or Changeling.