Is Speed Useful?

[Plane Sailing]

What do you think of this property? Is it a complete waste?

I think it is overpriced. Perhaps OK as a +2 enhancement but...

 

[mvincent]

A person with a speed weapon in each hand (duel weilding, both with speed) gets two additional attacks.

Nope. This has been conlusively discussed several times before, and was clarified as far back as the 3.0 FAQ (which would still be applicable here, since the relevant sections have not changed in regard to what this clarifies):
"You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but
you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the
other, not both."

 

[Question]

Now, if it stacked with everything else(except itself obviously) THEN it would be worth +3. Maybe even more.

 

[Umbran]

But the restriction is not specific. It's general. You can't combine haste with speed, for sure, and I see nothing that allows you to combine two speed weapons.

But, you aren't combining them, per se. Surely, they don't stack - with two such weapons you'd not get two extra attacks with only one of them. But working independantly seems reasonable (and helps mitigate that high cost somewhat).

 

[mvincent]

Boots of Speed compensate for his absence, or should I go with the speed property?

Boots of speed or mithral full-plate of speed give you more bonuses and cost considerably less. Their only disadvantage is that they can only be use 10 rounds/day, but (oddly) that is usually plenty (i.e. most players rarely need more than this in a day).

If you don't want the hassle of the extra record keeping (since haste affects 5 stats), just buy a second pair (or wear both mithral full-plate of speed and boots of speed) and hardcode the haste modifiers into your character sheet. It's darn near impossible to use of 20 rounds of haste in day (and if you do for some reason, you can modify your numbers on the fly).

 

[Shadeus]

I would argue the 3.0 FAQ doesn't apply in this case because both the haste spell and the speed enhancement were changed in 3.5.

I would approach a speed weapon mathmatically. We can do three basis for comparison:
- +5 greatsword
- +2 greatsword of speed
- +2 flaming shocking greatsword of frost

Let's keep with the 15th-level fighter and give him a 26 Str, greater/weapon focus, and greater weapon spec (I'll ignore melee weapon mastery or the slashing flurry feats from PHII for now).

So let's check out attacks:

+5 sword = +15 (BAB) + 2 (WF) + 5 (weapon) + 8 (Str) = +30
+2 speed sword = +27
+2 energy sword = +27

Now for damage:

+5 sword = 2d6 + 4 (W spec) + 5 (weapon) + 12 (Str) = ave. 28
+2 speed sword = ave. 25 (only difference is weapon enhancement)
+2 energy sword = 25 + 3d6 = ave. 35

Full attack against AC 20:
+5 sword = +30/+25/+20 at ave. 79.8 dmg each round
+2 speed sword = +27/+27/+23/+18 at ave. 95 dmg each round
+2 energy sword = +27/+23/+18 at ave. 99.75 dmg each round

Full attack against AC 25:
+5 sword = ave. 75.6 dmg each round
+2 speed sword = ave. 88.75 dmg each round
+2 energy sword = ave. 91 dmg each round

Full attack against AC 30:
+5 sword = ave. 64.4 dmg each round
+2 speed sword = ave. 71.25 dmg each round
+2 energy sword = ave. 70 dmg each round

So it's a slippery slope. If you are going to hit it a lot, then the energy sword is your best bet because it does the most damage. If it's got a better AC, then that extra attack at your best attack bonus really comes in handy. That's not to say that boots of speed can't do the exact same thing and more (speed weapon doesn't give you a boost to your movement, AC, attacks, or Ref saves).

 

[mvincent]

I would argue the 3.0 FAQ doesn't apply in this case because both the haste spell and the speed enhancement were changed in 3.5.

In a way that invalidates the intent of the clarification? Can you at least give a quote that supports this?

This is an old issue that has been resolved previously, but if you have access to some new information that would contradict this resolution, you should share.

I'll even provide some research. Here is the 3.0 text for Speed:
"Speed
A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at the wielder’s highest bonus. It is not cumulative with haste. The extra attack must be with this weapon. The weapon does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, simply an extra single attack with this weapon.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Market Price: +4 bonus."

Here is the 3.5 text:
"Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus."

Any changes made here between editions only seem to reinforce my earlier statement.

 

[Shadeus]

In a way that invalidates the intent of the clarification? Can you at least give a quote that supports this?

This is an old issue that has been resolved previously, but if you have access to some new information that would contradict this resolution, you should share.

I'll even provide some research. Here is the 3.0 text for Speed:
"Speed
A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at the wielder’s highest bonus. It is not cumulative with haste. The extra attack must be with this weapon. The weapon does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, simply an extra single attack with this weapon.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Market Price: +4 bonus."

Here is the 3.5 text:
"Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus."

Any changes made here between editions only seem to reinforce my earlier statement.

I don't have any quotes, just expressing my opinion.

The difference between the 3.0 and 3.5 speed is that 3.5 requires a full round action to take advantage of; the 3.0 version did not. In 3.0, you could charge up to someone up to double your movement and attack them twice.

Of course, the haste difference are the 3.0 allowed for and extra partial action and in 3.5 it allows for an extra attack when taken as part of a full round action.

It looks like the WotC site is down for the moment, so I can't look up the exact wording of the FAQ. I just think in 3.0 both speed and haste were more powerful and it required an FAQ for clarification. In 3.5, both speed and haste have been scaled back and maybe the restrictive nature of the FAQ no longer applies.

Again, only in my opinion.

 

[mvincent]

It looks like the WotC site is down for the moment, so I can't look up the exact wording of the FAQ.

I gave the applicable portion earlier, but here is the full answer:
"The description for the speed weapon property says it is
not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this
applies in the game seems unclear, especially when two
weapons of speed are involved. Can you use two speed
weapons at the same time? What, exactly, is meant when
the rules say haste and speed don’t stack? Does it mean you
can use the speed property during the normal portion of
your turn, but not during the “extra” partial action you get
from haste?
You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but
you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the
other, not both. If you are under the effects of a haste spell, you
can use the extra attack action from one weapon of speed, or
the extra partial action from the haste spell, but not both."

 

[Stalker0]

A speed weapon is probably not worth it except in the hands of a rogue. More attacks mean more sneak attack, and no amount of energy damage is going to compare once you start doing +4d6-10d6 SA per shot.