Is Sustaining Using?

[Nichwee]

Is sustaining a power an example of "Using" that power?

Basically we had a situation where our Druid used Earth Roots on a mob we could barely hit. He then sustained the ability every round to keep the mob from getting to us - it was slowed and the sustain says he can drag back one enemy within 2 of the zone back into it.
He also has an Earthfall Totem (which he has been told by CS does its damage on any slide/push/prone regardless of initial damage) and used it to hit the monster for 2d6 damage every turn as a minor action by sustaining the power.

This highlighted to me the idea that "Is sustaining a power using it?" as he can only add damage when "using a power" through the totem. And using a Minor to do 2d6 damage to a creature without an attack roll seemed cheesy to me. Not that different from Stinking Clouds I guess but that requires the Move Action, or other actions to move the mobs to get the damage and the Minor to merely retain the chance to do the damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

This has been discussed before, but the basic consensus was that using a power is first using a power. It took a lot of lookup in various sources to determine this. Sustaining a power is not using it, it's sustaining it. It's extending the duration.

No different than a Power that has a duration of an entire encounter. The creature that used the power is no longer using it, even if that creature can change it (i.e. like move it).

This interpretation assumes that the phrase "use" is a game mechanics term and not the English use of the word.

 

[Aulirophile]

Is sustaining a power an example of "Using" that power?

Basically we had a situation where our Druid used Earth Roots on a mob we could barely hit. He then sustained the ability every round to keep the mob from getting to us - it was slowed and the sustain says he can drag back one enemy within 2 of the zone back into it.
He also has an Earthfall Totem (which he has been told by CS does its damage on any slide/push/prone regardless of initial damage) and used it to hit the monster for 2d6 damage every turn as a minor action by sustaining the power.

This highlighted to me the idea that "Is sustaining a power using it?" as he can only add damage when "using a power" through the totem. And using a Minor to do 2d6 damage to a creature without an attack roll seemed cheesy to me. Not that different from Stinking Clouds I guess but that requires the Move Action, or other actions to move the mobs to get the damage and the Minor to merely retain the chance to do the damage.

Property: When you use a primal attack power through this totem that pushes or slides a creature or knocks a creature prone, you deal 1d6 extra damage to each creature that was pushed, slid, or knocked prone.

Extra damage specifically requires there be damage in the first place (PHB, check our rulings for Hunter's Quarry, Sneak Attack etc.,). Earth Roots Sustain has no damage. It doesn't work for much easier reasons.

EDIT:....Actually.... no, sustaining a power isn't "using" a power. So per the Sorc FAQ any sustain inherits the properties of the original power for secondary effects, meaning it works just the way your player says it does. That... is weird. Wonder what else you can pull of with this, might have to dust off my Druid.

 

[DracoSuave]

Is sustaining a power an example of "Using" that power?

Basically we had a situation where our Druid used Earth Roots on a mob we could barely hit. He then sustained the ability every round to keep the mob from getting to us - it was slowed and the sustain says he can drag back one enemy within 2 of the zone back into it.
He also has an Earthfall Totem (which he has been told by CS does its damage on any slide/push/prone regardless of initial damage) and used it to hit the monster for 2d6 damage every turn as a minor action by sustaining the power.

This highlighted to me the idea that "Is sustaining a power using it?" as he can only add damage when "using a power" through the totem. And using a Minor to do 2d6 damage to a creature without an attack roll seemed cheesy to me. Not that different from Stinking Clouds I guess but that requires the Move Action, or other actions to move the mobs to get the damage and the Minor to merely retain the chance to do the damage.

The thing is, sustaining that power is not using that power...

...however that doesn't change the fact that power was used with that totem. At that point, any damage that power does benefits from that totem, because that power was used with the totem.


Here's a better example that doesn't involve questionable CS rulings that makes the point:

Let's say you're a wizard with a Magic Orb +2, and a Magic Staff + 1. You have Staff of Defense, but you play in RPGA so the chances of choosing your items early on are nil. But who cares, you're first level, so a +2 item is super cool.

Let's say you're using the Magic Orb to cast a Flaming Sphere, which you use to chase down the big bad. The next turn, you sustain the Sphere, and use Magic Hand to swap the Orb for the Staff, for the extra defense.

The Flaming Sphere was used with the Orb, so any damage it does is modified by the stats of the orb. Repeating the attack will use the orb stats, because that Flaming Sphere was used with that orb. The fact you have a staff on doesn't change that.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The thing is, sustaining that power is not using that power...

...however that doesn't change the fact that power was used with that totem. At that point, any damage that power does benefits from that totem, because that power was used with the totem.


Here's a better example that doesn't involve questionable CS rulings that makes the point:

Let's say you're a wizard with a Magic Orb +2, and a Magic Staff + 1. You have Staff of Defense, but you play in RPGA so the chances of choosing your items early on are nil. But who cares, you're first level, so a +2 item is super cool.

Let's say you're using the Magic Orb to cast a Flaming Sphere, which you use to chase down the big bad. The next turn, you sustain the Sphere, and use Magic Hand to swap the Orb for the Staff, for the extra defense.

The Flaming Sphere was used with the Orb, so any damage it does is modified by the stats of the orb. Repeating the attack will use the orb stats, because that Flaming Sphere was used with that orb. The fact you have a staff on doesn't change that.

I'd consider this to be a highly questionable line of reasoning. I've never heard anyone advance this position before personally. What specifically leads to this rules interpretation? I'm not saying I know a reason off the top of my head why it is definitely wrong, but it certainly seems highly fishy to me.

Also there is a good bit of ambiguity with 'use'. WotC has made some clarifications but there are still some cases where trying to stick a single rigid definition can make odd things happen. I agree that the general meaning of use doesn't include things like sustain and usually won't include things like summons or conjurations making attacks, but watch out for drawing that line too sharply or you can end up in trouble.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd consider this to be a highly questionable line of reasoning. I've never heard anyone advance this position before personally.

I think Draco's line of reasoning here is not only reasonable, but the game becomes chaotic and messy to adjudicate if one does not do so.

Consider the following rules:

An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again.

A daily power can be used once per day.

If one is using Flaming Sphere more than once per day, on the round it is cast and on subsequent rounds, isn't it violating this useage rule?

On the other hand, if the power is only used when it is first used and subsequent effects and modifications of the power are not considered useages, then these rules are not violated.


Getting back to the Orb vs. Staff issue, if useage is only considered the first useage of the power, than the Implement used with that power would be the one for all effects of the power, regardless of when those effects occur, regardless of on whom those effects occur, etc. Wouldn't it? The entire power section and attack section and magic item section all specify enhancement modifiers "when the power is used".

It only becomes an issue if one considers useage to be the entire duration of the power. To avoid the issue, one just needs to avoid that interpretation.