Is the age of discounts over?

[Steel_Wind]

Wow, good one. I barely remember Hobbies and Such. But youre right about there not being a great selection of FLGS in the NYC area. There's one in Bklyn called Kings Games but it's at the far end of Brooklyn and therefore out of reach for me as far as regular visits go.

One of the interesting things is how online resllers have had such a deep impact on the American economy - and barely affected the Canadian economy. It has a presence - but it's small.

We still have FLGS's and they've barely been touched. The reason is shipping costs for internet transactions. In the USA, they are negligible or sometimes even "free".

In Canada - they are substantial. Any shipping via UPS from the USA attracts a customs brokerage fee of $30-40 (Even if it is a duty free item - this "surprise" charge antagonizes the hell out of people. They charge $30 to collect a few dollars in tax).

If you go USPS shipping you avoid customs brokerage fees but it takes longer - worse - USPS just went up a lot and is about $15-20 now. To this we add Provincial sales tax and GST (which always apply no matter where it is purchased) and a $5 minimum customs handling fee on all shipments. So shipping is now a minimum of about $20-25 per order - and often higher. And it takes 2-3 weeks to get here.

Some online resellers have a Canadian point of origin and shipping is a lot less. Amazon.ca does a rather brisk business - but it's nowhere near as large as in the USA.

Funny enough - people browse online up here a lot but do precious little online ordering compared to those south of the border. The FLGS is still quite alive and kicking in Canada.

 

[Glyfair]

Some online resellers have a Canadian point of origin and shipping is a lot less. Amazon.ca does a rather brisk business - but it's nowhere near as large as in the USA.

Out of curiosity, do they charge sales tax?

One thing I've noticed here that I never considered is that many consider the savings they get by avoiding sales tax (I live in a state with no sales tax, so it has no effect on my purchase decisions).

 

[freyar]

Out of curiosity, do they charge sales tax?

One thing I've noticed here that I never considered is that many consider the savings they get by avoiding sales tax (I live in a state with no sales tax, so it has no effect on my purchase decisions).

Yes, amazon.ca and other online retailers charge (and have to, I believe) the sales tax (GST, etc). Even some US retailers will charge the appropriate Canadian taxes, just so you don't get a bill from UPS or whatever shipping company they use. (I ran into this when someone sent my wife and me an LL Bean gift card last winter.)

Incidentally, some states in the US legally require you to pay sales tax on internet purchases, and some online retailers will charge it. Amazon doesn't, but technically you are supposed to pay. For example, California asks you to calculate your own sales tax for internet (or other mail-order) purchases you made for goods that you used in CA. It's right on the income tax return. Just pretty much nobody bothers doing that.

 

[Glyfair]

Incidentally, some states in the US legally require you to pay sales tax on internet purchases, and some online retailers will charge it. Amazon doesn't, but technically you are supposed to pay. For example, California asks you to calculate your own sales tax for internet (or other mail-order) purchases you made for goods that you used in CA. It's right on the income tax return. Just pretty much nobody bothers doing that.

Actually, I believe that's the case in all states with a sales tax. I know that PA supposedly requires their residents that buy something in Delaware to pay them the sales tax. I;ve never know someone to do so

Of course, by that rationale I feel that I shouldn't have to pay their sales tax*. I even have a friend that occasionally will complain that us paying PA sales tax when visiting is taxation without representation

* Although it apparently is possible in some cases since several car dealers in states surrounding Delaware advertise that there is no sales tax charged to DE residents.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Out of curiosity, do they charge sales tax?

One thing I've noticed here that I never considered is that many consider the savings they get by avoiding sales tax (I live in a state with no sales tax, so it has no effect on my purchase decisions).

Provincial Sales Tax (PST) and our national Goods and Services Tax ( GST) are mandatory - and are enforced - on all internet purchases.

For most commercial purchases, this means they are always taxed, no matter where purchased. Goods bought in the USA will still be taxed by Canada Customs. If you used a courier like UPS or FedEx - the courier will charge you both the taxes and a hefty handling fee ($30+) for collecting this piddling tax, too. If there are duties on the product (as happens with goods bought from the USA which were, in fact, manufactured elsewhere and thus not exempt under NAFTA) the duty on that product is collected as well by the courier.

If the article is mailed via the US Postal Service, then it is delivered here by Canada Post. Again, the post office collects the tax before you get the parcel. While small purchases and those marked gifts (if they appear to be fairly cheap) are frequently let through untaxed, for the most part on even small commercial purchases - the tax is actively collected by Canada Post . This is so whether you want to pay it or not. It is NOT an the "honour system".

So yes - sales taxes are always levied for all intents and purposes. PST varies province to province, but combined, they average about 15%, with PST and GST taken together across Canada (although Alberta does not have a PST. They have oil ) Free healthcare costs money

Because taxes are always payable, they are a neutral factor in any online shopping decision. The $5 handling fee charged by Canada Customs on a per order basis, however, is not a neutral tax and is intended to increase prices to make small internet purchases originating in the USA unattractive. The tax is clearly protectionist and is probably illegal under NAFTA, but has never been challenged with any vigor.

The reality is that shipping costs already have more than enough deterrent effect.

 

[AllisterH]

While this doesn't directly affect me in Canada, it seems this ruling is all about clashing rights:

- the publisher's or manufacturer's right to set a price for their products, vs.
- the retailer's right to sell those products for whatever price they want, vs.
- my right to buy those products for the lowest price I can find, if I so desire.

I'll be surprised if this ruling stands up in the long run.

Er, but I thought after the Supreme Court decided something, there wasn't any avenue of appeal left?

 

[freyar]

While small purchases and those marked gifts (if they appear to be fairly cheap) are frequently let through untaxed, for the most part on even small commercial purchases - the tax is actively collected by Canada Post .

Having had some of my stuff shipped from the US, I can tell you that the reason is that imports under $20 are tax-free, as are gift imports under $60. I have been tempted to make small purchases from amazon.com to get the better of the exchange rate, but you're absolutely right that the international shipping costs are a big barrier.

Er, but I thought after the Supreme Court decided something, there wasn't any avenue of appeal left?

There is no appeal per se, but the Supreme Court could revisit the issue in another case (as in fact was the case here, though 96 years later). Or the Congress could pass a law specifically outlawing these types of pricing agreements, since there's no Constitutional issue involved.

 

[Vigilance]

Er, but I thought after the Supreme Court decided something, there wasn't any avenue of appeal left?

I think Congress would have to make new law, or another case on the same issue would have to reach the SC, and convince the judges to reverse their own ruling (very unlikely) or a similar case could reach the court when its members have changed due to retirement or death.

But really, Im a little confused by all the hand-wringing by folks in this thread.

Everything being mentioned in the thread happens already: retail prices are set, prices are raised or lowered, sales are offered, these things have an effect on LGS vs. e-tailers vs. chain stores.

As I understand it, all this ruling would do, would be to actually give manufacturers a say in those decisions too.

I dont understand why that's necessarily a horrible thing for the consumer. Id like to assume that Wizards would have an equal or better understanding of how prices will affect their market and their customers as, say, Amazon or Wal-mart, so giving them a little more say in the retail price seems fine.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think Congress would have to make new law, or another case on the same issue would have to reach the SC, and convince the judges to reverse their own ruling (very unlikely) or a similar case could reach the court when its members have changed due to retirement or death.

But really, Im a little confused by all the hand-wringing by folks in this thread.

Everything being mentioned in the thread happens already: retail prices are set, prices are raised or lowered, sales are offered, these things have an effect on LGS vs. e-tailers vs. chain stores.

As I understand it, all this ruling would do, would be to actually give manufacturers a say in those decisions too.

I dont understand why that's necessarily a horrible thing for the consumer. Id like to assume that Wizards would have an equal or better understanding of how prices will affect their market and their customers as, say, Amazon or Wal-mart, so giving them a little more say in the retail price seems fine.

The part that I think is funny is that folks act like WotC won this case and engage in such practices. They can't even keep people from breaking ship dates, and they're going to micromanage end-user pricings?

This ruling doesn't say every such "deal" is legal, it just says that such deals should be judged on a more case by case basis, rather than being outright illegal.

I'm in the gun business, and Glock has been doing this for years with their distributors, so I'm not sure if the original ruling only applied to the retailer, as opposied to distributors.

 

[PatEllis15]

I've read a similar thread over at Boardgamergeek.com...

There to, everyone is debating whether this is good/bad for board game companies, and whether any of them will actually take advantage of the ruling.

From my perspective, I kind of doubt that they will. BUT, I'm surprised by the general anti-FLGS sentiment on this board.

First regarding WotC's retail stores: I have only ever seen ONE FLGS located in a traditional shopping mall (Legends near Towson, MD). As far as I know (I could be very wrong), all of WotC's game stores were located in shopping malls. None of their stores offered in store gaming. The costs of operating a retail establishment in a mall are prohibitive. That is why you just don't see a M&P store in a mall all that often. The rent is too high, profit sharing, minimum hours requirements etc. I don't see any connection to their stores, and what WotC seeing in FLGS.

For me, I too didn't get introduced to D&D at a FLGS. My brother, and a friend taught me. HOWEVER, it is not introduction per se that Dancy is talking about. Growth can be going from an introductory buyer, to a larger scale buyer.

In my case, I saw the owner of my FLGS playing D&D with some friends... I saw the "lead figures" that they were using (1984 or so), and decided that I needed to start using Mini's... Now of course I have about 3000 prepainted ones! Additionally, going back to that store, 8 times out of 10, the owner would have "The Russian Campaign" set up, as he was a big fan of that particular title. Seeing that type of board game introduced me to Avalon Hill by 1985 or so, and I've continued to buy "hobby" or "Euro" board games ever since.

My first taste of Magic was in a FLGS. I was pulled into my current game group via particpating in an RPGA event in the store, I kept buying Babylon CCG cards for several sets because I had a chance to actually USE my cards at an event at the FLGS, ditto for the original Star Wars CCG. I was first introduced to a "convention" when my FLGS put on a Games Day. Now, I make sure I go to Gen Con every year (and D&D XP, and I do what I can for a few local shows as well).

Having FLGS around may not introduce complete novices to the hobby. But they serve as an excellent gateway to get people slightly involved DEEPLY involved. Note that WotC requires that a store have open gaming space available to qualify for their "Premier" store status. Customer X see's Spiderman 3 at the local cinema, and thinks it's cool, so he decided to go to the store to pick up the comic. While there he sees people playing HeroClix, or Mutants & Masterminds, and checks it out...

Sure, it doesn't happen for everyone, nor do such examples happen at every store, every day.


BUT: What I do know is that it cannot happen if the FLGS isn't actually there.

Pat E