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Is the Cleric a Common Fantasy Archtype?
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
Merlion
First Post
takyris said:
Actualy I dont remember the Gnomes of Storlock using magic...they were just really skilled healers. but yes in Shannara most people had a couple or three magical abilities...not really a practice of magic accept maybe the druids.
Its true that much fantasy ignores religion entirly. However consider David Edding's Elenium/Tamuli. In that all magic came from the Gods..however it was basicaly what would be Arcane magic in DnD...attack defense manipulation of the physical world etc..and some healing as well. And it was somewhat "scholarly" in nature..the main magic users, the Styrics, refered to it as the "secrets of Styricum", and they had to be studied extensively. Their were several orders of non-styric knight-types who knew a little styric magic..but again it was largely "arcane" in flavour...and they were more like Paladins in that they had very limited magical ability.
Voadam is my new hero - simply for using the words "pirate" and "booty" in the same sentence.
Two of my favorite fantasy fiction authors are Simon Green and David Gemmel, and I think they illustrate the way I think of clerics quite well: In Green's fantasy fiction (Blue Moon Rising, The Hawk & Fisher books, etc), all spellcasters have the potential to have healing spells in their repertiore. There doesn't seem to be any difference (both mechanically and with flavor) between healing magics (what we think of as clerical spells) and arcane magics (like blowing stuff up left and right). Most spellcasters seem to be able to do both. In fact, in one of his later books, he has a character that believes his power comes from God, when in actuality it comes from his conviction in God (and otherwise he is a sorcerer just like the rest).
On the other hand, I think Gemmel has the closest thing to clerics I've seen outside of gaming or gaming influenced fiction: the Thirty. The Thirty are an elite organization of warrior priests who specialize in the both the healing arts and mental abilites. They are put in direct conflict with a large number of wizards who are their opposite. If any fictional character/organization could be modeled by the D&D cleric, they're it.
am181d
Adventurer
I voted "no", because the base archetype is a weird mix of crusades-era knights and apostle. ("Beat your swords into... swords.")
Oddly, the Cleric does model more shamanistic faiths a little better. Divine Warriors/Medicine Men who use their magics to fight for their tribe.
Personally, one thing I liked about 2e was that the priests were de-Clericified.
Oddly, the Cleric does model more shamanistic faiths a little better. Divine Warriors/Medicine Men who use their magics to fight for their tribe.
Personally, one thing I liked about 2e was that the priests were de-Clericified.
On clerics, there's a bit of a problem. Fighters and rogues from different fantasy worlds are still pretty much the same. Wizards are too, though they vary somewhat as the metaphysic of magic varies from world to world.
On religion, though, fantasy books may as well not be lumped together as a genre, because they have little in common. Religion (and it's role in society) in fantasy worlds varies so greatly form one book to another that it's not really fair to ask D&D to provide an archetype that covers many of them.
On religion, though, fantasy books may as well not be lumped together as a genre, because they have little in common. Religion (and it's role in society) in fantasy worlds varies so greatly form one book to another that it's not really fair to ask D&D to provide an archetype that covers many of them.
Merlion
First Post
Well really more shamanistic/druidic sort of religions and magic really have a bigger role in fantasy than "divine" clericy priesty magic in my experience.
But I agree the Cleric is largely inspired by the Templars etc. And so is the Paladin but the Paladin actualy fits aside from the alignment restriction. the cleric is trying to be the Templar and the miracle worker/philsopher at the same time. But that last is pretty uncommon in fantasy and when it exists, its basicaly a "mage" filling the role who just happens to be a religious person.
Their are 2 ways I would like to see things handled neither of which is ever likely to happen in core DnD.
One would be, remove the cleric and replace it with a more purely priestly less combative class such as I've seen many of in the House Rules forum. a little bit hardier than a wizard but focus mainly on spells..and with spell focused on healing, support and divination with maybe a few mainly alignment relatedly smitey spells. Adopt something along the lines of the Holy Warrior in Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous to replace the Paladin. So we have the Priest as the main spellcaster and the Holy Warrior as physical/combat champion of the faith.
option 2 and my favorite deals with both my issues. This is the option more or less used in Arcana Unearthed. Unify magic so anyone can heal, attack, divine whatever in whatever proportions they choose(more or less). Have a nice generic spellcasting class, and perhaps some sort of Priest or Ordained feat that allows your spells to assume some characteristics and effects that reflect your deity or religion.
But I agree the Cleric is largely inspired by the Templars etc. And so is the Paladin but the Paladin actualy fits aside from the alignment restriction. the cleric is trying to be the Templar and the miracle worker/philsopher at the same time. But that last is pretty uncommon in fantasy and when it exists, its basicaly a "mage" filling the role who just happens to be a religious person.
Their are 2 ways I would like to see things handled neither of which is ever likely to happen in core DnD.
One would be, remove the cleric and replace it with a more purely priestly less combative class such as I've seen many of in the House Rules forum. a little bit hardier than a wizard but focus mainly on spells..and with spell focused on healing, support and divination with maybe a few mainly alignment relatedly smitey spells. Adopt something along the lines of the Holy Warrior in Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous to replace the Paladin. So we have the Priest as the main spellcaster and the Holy Warrior as physical/combat champion of the faith.
option 2 and my favorite deals with both my issues. This is the option more or less used in Arcana Unearthed. Unify magic so anyone can heal, attack, divine whatever in whatever proportions they choose(more or less). Have a nice generic spellcasting class, and perhaps some sort of Priest or Ordained feat that allows your spells to assume some characteristics and effects that reflect your deity or religion.
Merlion
First Post
Umbran said:
My problem with the cleric and the question of the poll isnt related to what the cleric doesnt do. its not that I dont think DnD has represented fantasy religion well...its that I think the Cleric class(and to a large extent the concept of Divine Magic as done in DnD) has little simliarity to most fantasy literature/media.
Dr. NRG
First Post
From Robin Hood's Friar Tuck on down, there have been religious sorts that can fight to one degree or another in literature.
If you're asking, are there characters outside of official D&D literature that conform to every aspect of a cleric's make-up as described in the D&D universe, you're going to pretty easily be able to conclude that the answer is no. If you're asking whether priests, shaman, spell-wielders, holy warriors and so on exist in the literature, your answer will be yes.
I think the root question is whether the cleric class does a good job of allowing the widely-varied fantasy characters that fall under it to work. Given the broad categories it must encompass (from necromantic dead-raiser to Holy Smiter with spells) I think it does a pretty good job.
NRG
If you're asking, are there characters outside of official D&D literature that conform to every aspect of a cleric's make-up as described in the D&D universe, you're going to pretty easily be able to conclude that the answer is no. If you're asking whether priests, shaman, spell-wielders, holy warriors and so on exist in the literature, your answer will be yes.
I think the root question is whether the cleric class does a good job of allowing the widely-varied fantasy characters that fall under it to work. Given the broad categories it must encompass (from necromantic dead-raiser to Holy Smiter with spells) I think it does a pretty good job.
NRG
Merlion
First Post
Certainly. But could Friar Tuck create a massive storm of fire, or summon a powerful Solar, or cause someone to implode by pointing at them?
And in thease worlds with religious warriors, are the mage-types forbidden from healing, or removing dieases, or sensing the presence of evil?
I understand what you are saying..but I still disagree. the Cleric as near as I can tell was designed to be a heavily armored battle-healer, with a decidely medieveal Catholic feel.
And apart from but related to the cleric class itself is the issue of the magic system...the hard and fast devisions and restrictions of magic. Wizards and Sorcerers are not permited meaningful healing or curing spells, spells relating to good and evil, and a few other things. And clerics are largely barred from many magical utilities. in most fantasy I have seen and read magic is magic...in many their have been people who were refered to as Mages and yet FOCUSED on healing magic.
And in thease worlds with religious warriors, are the mage-types forbidden from healing, or removing dieases, or sensing the presence of evil?
I understand what you are saying..but I still disagree. the Cleric as near as I can tell was designed to be a heavily armored battle-healer, with a decidely medieveal Catholic feel.
And apart from but related to the cleric class itself is the issue of the magic system...the hard and fast devisions and restrictions of magic. Wizards and Sorcerers are not permited meaningful healing or curing spells, spells relating to good and evil, and a few other things. And clerics are largely barred from many magical utilities. in most fantasy I have seen and read magic is magic...in many their have been people who were refered to as Mages and yet FOCUSED on healing magic.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Closest thing I can think of, technically, are characters from many of David Eddings books...although they could equally be said to be Paladins.
That said, there aren't a lot of examples of gnomes, halflings, half-orcs, rangers, paladins, martial monks (as opposed to silent, cloistered bald guys wearing brown robes who make beer and books) and a bunch of other such tropes outside of D&D per se. D&D is just a big melting pot based loosely on the western fantasy tradition, with whatever the original designers thought was cool at the time. I mean, you've got sphixes existing alongside frost giants, manticores and golems. That's a lot of different mythologies rolled into one. Is the cleric a major archetype in fantasy? No, but it doesn't bother me much. The cleric class pulls together a set of disparate elements, in an attempt to model several different sub-archetypes, and make them viable in-game, and I think it does a pretty good job of it.
And as one of my players (who plays a 19th level cleric) said to me today: "You don't realize how sucky 3/4 BAB progression is until you have it."
That said, there aren't a lot of examples of gnomes, halflings, half-orcs, rangers, paladins, martial monks (as opposed to silent, cloistered bald guys wearing brown robes who make beer and books) and a bunch of other such tropes outside of D&D per se. D&D is just a big melting pot based loosely on the western fantasy tradition, with whatever the original designers thought was cool at the time. I mean, you've got sphixes existing alongside frost giants, manticores and golems. That's a lot of different mythologies rolled into one. Is the cleric a major archetype in fantasy? No, but it doesn't bother me much. The cleric class pulls together a set of disparate elements, in an attempt to model several different sub-archetypes, and make them viable in-game, and I think it does a pretty good job of it.
And as one of my players (who plays a 19th level cleric) said to me today: "You don't realize how sucky 3/4 BAB progression is until you have it."
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