D&D 5E Is the "setting guide" format defunct?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Then you wouldn't pay good money for a post-Faction War Planescape guide. You'd pay good money for reprinted '90s setting material. I'm not criticizing -- this is /exactly/ my position on Dragonlance. But you should call a space a spade, because the question of whether the existing settings get expanded upon or simply rehashed is central to this discussion.

Eh, not quite. There were some neat things that came out of faction war. I have no problem with factions rising, falling, and merging. But the intrigue of the factions rubbing shoulders in the city was a key component of the setting, and Faction War took that way. Moreover, from my understanding, it wasn't intended to be permanent, so the hypothetical follow up book would just advance the timeline to where they had wormed their way back in and regrouped somewhat. Advancing the setting is fine, making rain fall on Athas and turning it back into a verdant world is missing the point of the setting.

 

[Manchu]

The two best known D&D settings, GreyHawk and FR, began as homebrew campaigns. Like Ravenloft, Dragonlance began as an adventure (or AP to retroactively apply the terminology). I am not sure but I think Dark Sun and Spelljammer were engineered as products. Planescape is a hybrid, a "corporate" setting built on "homemade" cosmology and metaphysics. I guess it is a mixed bag.

Good example with Dungeon, I used it the same way. I have several complete APs from Paizo for a slightly different reason: I was really curious about the product concept and how the plots were structured. I don't like Pathfinder but I think the APs are really solid products and they make me wish I did like Pathfinder/was part of a Pathfinder group. I think participating, either as a DM or a PC, in one of those APs would be a much better introduction to Golarion than any of the pamphlets or HC-format setting info Paizo has released over the years. That said, I do own a bunch of that stuff, too, and some of it is very good.

 

[DMZ2112]

Eh, not quite. There were some neat things that came out of faction war. I have no problem with factions rising, falling, and merging. But the intrigue of the factions rubbing shoulders in the city was a key component of the setting, and Faction War took that way. Moreover, from my understanding, it wasn't intended to be permanent, so the hypothetical follow up book would just advance the timeline to where they had wormed their way back in and regrouped somewhat.

This is a little off topic, now, but the Faction War was not the first time in the history of Sigil that the Lady of Pain ejected factions from its streets. I absolutely agree that factions would eventually return to Sigil, but assuming they will be the same ones is in direct contravention to setting lore, which includes numerous references to now-defunct factions. As a result of the Faction War the familiar factions had already begun to fragment and recombine.

So I hear what you're saying about the hypothetical follow up book, but I don't really understand what you mean by "it wasn't intended to be permanent." I think it was absolutely intended to be permanent, it's just that the consequences are not as black and white as you originally described.

Advancing the setting is fine, making rain fall on Athas and turning it back into a verdant world is missing the point of the setting.

Agh, gods, could not disagree more. Post-Messenger Athas, so fascinating.

 

[DMZ2112]

The two best known D&D settings, GreyHawk and FR, began as homebrew campaigns.

Greyhawk, yes, no doubt. Forgotten Realms as a setting predates fantasy roleplaying by about a decade. It was a narrative beast long before it was an expository one.

Like Ravenloft, Dragonlance began as an adventure (or AP to retroactively apply the terminology).

Yup.

...What? Nothing to see here.

 

[Manchu]

Point stands: FR qua campaign setting arose from play. We're getting off-track with hairsplitting again. The original point was, since at least 3E the assumption has been that DMs need setting guides -- but we can see the truth of things in the origns of some published campaigns. Golarion is just the latest and most relevant example, seeing as how it was/is being summoned up through APs. Paizo then goes behind reshuffling the background info into setting-focused products, which I doubt WotC will do.

 

[Shemeska]

So I hear what you're saying about the hypothetical follow up book, but I don't really understand what you mean by "it wasn't intended to be permanent." I think it was absolutely intended to be permanent, it's just that the consequences are not as black and white as you originally described.

It wasn't intended to be a permanent thing. The intent by the Planescape design crew was to eventually bring the Factions back into Sigil, advancing the setting metaplot through future products. However the setting was folded back into core, as opposed to a setting of its own, by TSR and those planned products never progressed past the conceptual stage.

Personally I love the complexity of post-FW Sigil and the fact that you get to still play with the remaining factions, new ones, and the remnant believers of disbanded ones all trying to get back in or retain power in any way outside of calling themselves a faction. Plus you get to play with the power vacuum it all creates which is really a place where PCs can shine in helping or hindering those seeking to fill the factions' place, or seeking to fill it themselves.

That said, I tend to gloss over DVD as ever having happened in my home campaigns (incorporating the slender amount of 4e material on Sigil where it fits and discarding material that clearly only makes sense in the 4e cosmos).

I'd give a lung to be able to work on a 5e Planescape guide. Seriously. Dream project right there.

 

[Reynard]

Could you expand on this point?

I don't personally think APs are a particularly good form of adventure. At the minimum, they assume far too much of the campaign real estate -- with most assuming the AP *is* the campaign. I know that AP style campaigns have been in vogue since the Paizo era of Dungeon (I realize the basic concept is at least as old as Dragonlance, but it be came popular after the big success of Age of Worms) but knowing the destination has always been antithetical to the point of D&D, the very reason for table top roleplaying at all (versus, say, a CRPG). Just so it's clear, I am speaking of my own opinion and preferences, not making an authoritative statement of fact.

 

[Reynard]

Yes it does!

I /love/ this game. Now you go!

I'll reiterate just for giggles: old material on a subjectl do not obviate the need for new materials on the same subject. If absolutely nothing else, new authors will create a fresh perspective.

If this is the case you're dealing with a subpar AP. Every encounter should worldbuild and every location article should advance the story.

Even if that were true (which I don't think it is, especially that part about "story") the fact that you are writing an adventure versus a gazeteer means, by definition, the adventure is not built to convey setting information exclusively. A well written RPG book IMO (as a writer of them, btw) includes adventure seeds and inspirational ideas in every paragraph.

 

[delericho]

Even if that were true (which I don't think it is, especially that part about "story") the fact that you are writing an adventure versus a gazeteer means, by definition, the adventure is not built to convey setting information exclusively. A well written RPG book IMO (as a writer of them, btw) includes adventure seeds and inspirational ideas in every paragraph.

Agreed. While I like the AP format, an AP is not a good substitute for a setting guide. Better to use the right tool for the right job, in both cases.

 

[steeldragons]

"Is the setting guide format defunct?"

Gods I HOPE not! I love a good setting guide! To read and mine for ideas more than to explicitly "use as a setting for a game." But yeah. I hope they're not going anywhere.

Honestly, I could give 2 hoots about Adventure Paths. Again, perhaps to mine or just read through. If someone got me one for a gift, I am nothing if not gracious. I can't see myself ever using one, as written, running from levels 1-15 as a game though. No thanks.

I'll take a setting guide/box set over a half dozen adventure paths in a second. A well done setting should be able to give you FAR more than a half dozen adventure ideas.

It's not "good for business", I'll grant. Obviously, WotC would want people spending money 6 times (on 6 different products) rather than once (even if that once, perhaps, is the cost of 1.5 or 2 times the adventure path cost, you're still "losing" money).