Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?

[Tetsubo]

swords are dumb because you cant hold the blade and not get cut.

see, both these arguments are strawmen.

Swords are not designed to be held by the blade with your bare hands.

There simply isn't any way to use the Spiked Chain AS DEPICTED IN EVERY ILLUSTRATION of the weapon. It is an absurd design that has no place even in a fantasy game...

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Swords are not designed to be held by the blade with your bare hands.

There simply isn't any way to use the Spiked Chain AS DEPICTED IN EVERY ILLUSTRATION of the weapon. It is an absurd design that has no place even in a fantasy game...

I really didn't want this thread to go in this direction.

Tetsubo, you have already put forward your opinion and you're entitled to it - but repeat it too many times and you're just thread-crapping. When I crafted the thread, my purpose was to throw something at my PCs that's a little different, but I quickly found that there was more mystique surrounding the spiked-chain build than actual substance.

In reference to your arguments, check out the two pictures in Heroes of Horror in regards to the Tainted Minion and Tainted Reaver. These illustrations show a reasonable (at least in terms of fantasy) depiction of a spiked chain in action. For those without access to the book, two large rings act as handhold with a regular chain between them. On the other end of each of these handholds is the spiked part of the chain.

This is good enough for me.

[edit]her's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20051014a&page=3[edit]

Anyway, thanks everyone for putting forward so many good ideas. My plans are to go for a dexterity build and have him surrounded by a few big boppers that can take advantage of any mayhem. I don't want to make the build so it is impossible for the PCs to win a trip check, just enough so that it's tough. If I was playing a PC build however, strength is obviously the way to go from what you're saying.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Again, though, only if they're stupid enough to consistently put themselves in a position to be tripped. Classed demihumans are often way too smart to fall for this trick more than once, and any DM who keeps mindlessly walking them towards the spiked chain fighter should have their DM-card revoked. Even a creature with animal intelligence shouldn't fall for this more than once.

This is a powerful tactic, but it's not that powerful. PCs have to constantly respond and adjust their tactics based on what the monster they're facing is doing - why should monsters be any different? If a PC had DR 2/whatever, wouldn't an intelligent creature be smart enough to realize its weapon isn't working as well as it thought and change up tactics? In that case, the monster may not have another weapon - against a spiked chain, it could always choose not to be an idiot and stick its hand in front of the lawn mower.

So your answer is that "melee is dumb"?

You trip the NPC. They get up, get hit but not tripped, then move away. The spiked chain wielder follows, then trips them again. Avoiding a spiked chain is very difficult as long as the spiked chain wielder has as much mobility as the victim; anywhere the victim goes, the spiked chain weilder can follow. Or the spiked chain wielder can go after someone else in the party.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Swords are not designed to be held by the blade with your bare hands.

There simply isn't any way to use the Spiked Chain AS DEPICTED IN EVERY ILLUSTRATION of the weapon. It is an absurd design that has no place even in a fantasy game...

Well their have been good examples of the spiked chain. I remember one with the spiked chain making its way into the foreground of the picture. I forget were it was from though. Quite simply, most illustrations are a bit ridicules, but are you going to ban a weapon because artiste zero? here is how it works. one artiest makes a semi absurd dzn of a weapon, and to save time the other artist's use it too. It is after all in the equipment section.

I don't see how one conception of the spiked chain can make the weapon broken or cheesy? cant you imagine it in such a way as to be mechanically feasible? I can. Do you choose to use the most absurd abstraction possible or are you just limited to official d&d art?

If you wish to discuss the implications the artiste on the imagination of the common gamer, I would be very welcome to join you in such a thread. It could be fun. But quite simply swords were not meant to be gripped by the blade, and spiked chains were not meant to be gripped by the spikes. its just a victim of odd artistic conception.

If anyone can find that image I was talking about earlier, please post it, just for the awesome factor. imho it was the best spiked chain image in a d&d book thus far.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

So your answer is that "melee is dumb"?

No, my answer was if you mindlessly walk towards the spiked chain wielder, knowing he'll mow you down when you try, that's dumb.

You have to remember, the PC most likely to be able to do this is a Fighter (I suppose a wizard build to do this might be interesting to keep people away from you, but good luck winning those trip attempts with much regularity).

But this isn't your only job as a Fighter - you've got a lot of responsibility to take attention away from the monsters and keep them from eating your less melee-able companions. What do I do as a spiked chain wielder if they ignore me and destroy my companions? If they spread out, I can't keep them all busy, and with my reduced damage capacity (sure you get an extra attack, but that initial trip attack doesn't do any damage now, does it?) I'm less able to crunch those enemies and keep them away from my wizard, or my rogue, or my cleric.

The synergy with Combat Reflexes is great, but every reach weapon achieves the exact same effect when combined with this. That's one of the major uses of the feat. Without a reach weapon, it's a pretty silly feat to take - not useless, but not all that useful, either.

I just had a fight last session where a monster was able to close with me because of my responsibilities to keep the rest of the party alive. I could have 5' adjusted back after my attack to make the skulk provoke an AOO again, but doing so would have almost definitely gotten the rogue killed.

My point is that monsters need tactics, too. If a sorcerer has just nailed a group of monsters with a fireball, they sure as heck shouldn't all stand together in a mob anymore - they should spread out and take that tactic away from the sorcerer, just like infantry facing cannon don't cluster together. DMs need to stop being lazy and tactically deny the spiked chain wielder their benefits.

I could almost exactly emulate the abilities of a spiked chain by having armor spikes and wielding a guisarme (all I'd lose is a +2 to disarm) - and I wouldn't even need to spend a feat on an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. I'd even have a better crit multiplier! Would that be cheesy, or just powergaming?

 

[milo]

I personally prefer the cleric of kossuth route for the spiked chain. Go with the war domain to get prof and focus. Don't have my books handy, but I think the destruction domain is also available. Divine power + Righteous might with combat reflexes for the Aoo is devastating. Stats are at 1st 14 str 14 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha put 4th and 8th stat into wis. Feats would be 1st combat reflexes 1st combat expertise 3rd dodge 6th mobility 9th spring attack. Could possibly sub out combat reflexes for whirlwind. Pick up a couple of stat boosting items to change final stats before spells to str 14 dex 16 con 14 int 14 wis 20 cha 10. Gloves of dex are necessary to counteract dex negative from righteous might. After spells str 24 dex 14 con 20 int 14 wis 20 cha 10. Bear's endurance, righteous might and divine power. There are many more good spells to cast but this is to keep it short and only needs three rounds of prep time. He could easily hear the party coming up and cast the bear's endurance ahead of time. Have a room with a few weak enemies to give him casting time, then he busts through the door on round 4 or 5.

 

[Tetsubo]

I really didn't want this thread to go in this direction.

Tetsubo, you have already put forward your opinion and you're entitled to it - but repeat it too many times and you're just thread-crapping. When I crafted the thread, my purpose was to throw something at my PCs that's a little different, but I quickly found that there was more mystique surrounding the spiked-chain build than actual substance.

In reference to your arguments, check out the two pictures in Heroes of Horror in regards to the Tainted Minion and Tainted Reaver. These illustrations show a reasonable (at least in terms of fantasy) depiction of a spiked chain in action. For those without access to the book, two large rings act as handhold with a regular chain between them. On the other end of each of these handholds is the spiked part of the chain.

This is good enough for me.

[edit]her's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20051014a&page=3[edit]

Anyway, thanks everyone for putting forward so many good ideas. My plans are to go for a dexterity build and have him surrounded by a few big boppers that can take advantage of any mayhem. I don't want to make the build so it is impossible for the PCs to win a trip check, just enough so that it's tough. If I was playing a PC build however, strength is obviously the way to go from what you're saying.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I will bow to your wishes. But in neither of those images does the Spiked Chain perform as it's text describes it would...

 

[Shin Ji]

I will bow to your wishes. But in neither of those images does the Spiked Chain perform as it's text describes it would...

First, let me say I agree that the spiked chain makes very little sense looking at it. I tend to visualize it as a normal length of chain, with a spiked ball at the end, similar to the head of a morningstar.

I'd actually prefer it to be a bludgeoning weapon, something like a meteor hammer.

But as to the best way to build a spiked chain wielder, let me put forward this build. Warning- it uses several books.

You take your first two levels as a Wolf Totem Barbarian, from Unearthed Arcana. This gives you Improved Trip without needing to get a high Int or take Combat Reflexes. Pick up Whirling Frenzy from the same book if your DM allows it.

After that, you fill space until 6th level, where you take Exotic Weapon Master to get Flurry of Strikes and net yourself an extra attack.

Fighter dips are nice, as are Warblade dips, in order to be competitive with spellcasters. Getting into Warmind (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook), or Occult Slayer is probably a good idea.

And the real icing on the cake is to get the Shock Trooper feat from Complete Warrior- it lets you Power Attack full without taking a penalty to hit. By 10th level, using the Pouncing Charge maneuver, you can do over 300 damage on a charge.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

First, let me say I agree that the spiked chain makes very little sense looking at it. I tend to visualize it as a normal length of chain, with a spiked ball at the end, similar to the head of a morningstar.

I'd actually prefer it to be a bludgeoning weapon, something like a meteor hammer.

Yeah, if I'd been designing it, that's probably what I'd have done, also, but then you'd be able to effectively sunder with it from reach too, and people already cry foul about it.

I almost wonder if that's what the designers had in mind, but then decided being able to sunder with it was too powerful, and made it spiked/piercing. After all, piercing weapons are the only weapons that can't sunder, and a chain-based weapon realistically makes more sense both as a bludgeoning or slashing weapon before a piercing one.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In the hands of a specialist, tripping is a highly efficient means of dealing with melee-oriented Medium humanoids. The downside of this route is you are investing 3 or more feats on a tactic that is suboptimal for almost everything else.

IME this is a balanced trade off -- Medium humanoids may be the most common style of opponent, but I see plenty of critters that laugh it off thrown into the mix. I can easily imagine campaigns where this is overpowered or underpowered, based on the opponent mix.

I do not see this as a fundamentally different problem than Favored Enemy -- whether it is awesome or crappy or somewhere in between depends on the style of campaign.