Is there no love for d20 modern?

[Roudi]

Vitality shields Hit Points, and regenerates rapidly?

"Talents" that allow low-level characters to spontaneously regenerate Vitality?

What system were you reading? The d20 Modern core rules do not include vitality points. If you saw Vitality in the book you read, it was NOT d20 Modern. d20 Modern has NO buffer before hit points.

Or that provide Damage Reduction?

Three Tough Hero talents provide Damage Reduction. They provide 1/-, 2/-, and 3/-, respectively. They do not stack. If this is game-breaking to you, then I should wonder why you aren't also incredulous about a feat that provides a +1 bonus to ranged attack rolls and damage made within 30ft.

Characters with severe gaping wounds from missing limbs have no statistic penalties, and only bleed to death if they are subjeted to a "bleeding" wound? (what else would you call a missing arm?!?!)

The d20 core rules don't model called shots, severed limbs, blood loss (well, kinda), and other real-world injuries. This is true of both D&D and d20 Modern; presumably d20 Modern can't trade upon D&D's status of "fantasy" to excuse these omissions. If d20 Modern were a "real life statistical simulation", then I suppose these factors would be considered. However, the core d20 Modern system doesn't model every eventuality, nor is it perfect. This is what house rules and 3rd party supplements are for (I assume you've already "corrected" this oversight within your own system).

Handguns that literally CANNOT kill a person in one shot?!?!

I'm not sure where you got this impression, except perhaps a lack of attention to the material you so briefly perused. True, a .22 caliber pistol that deals 2d4 damage in normal combat scenarios (i.e., shooting at an aware, moving target at least a few feet away). will likely not kill any but the weakest characters. However, put that pistol up to someone's head when they can't defend themselves, and yes, that pistol will most likely be a one-shot kill (it's called a coup de grace attack, but I'm sure you knew that). I'm not sure what "real world" you live in, but .22 and 9mm rounds fired in normal combat (as in, aiming for the largest body mass, if one aims at all) do NOT usually drop a determined target right away. Ordinariy characters will certainly go down fast, but Heroic characters (who presumably have more motivation than Ordinaries) might be able to shrug off a shot or two (I agree, there should be some measure of injury in the system, as a character who takes a bullet shouldn't be able to act like nothing's happened... I deal with that as a GM, however, as it ought to be).

To be honest, it sounds as if your sole experience playing d20 Modern was affected by either some very lucky rolls, or a GM who didn't know the system too well. Six goverment agents (we can assume they are proficient with their equipment, I hope) wielding automatic-RoF submachineguns, presumably from point-blank-range to a few feet away, at one flat-footed, naked opponent? I'm sorry, but as the game's written, your character shouldn't have survived that unscathed.

In any case, you've got your bag, some others of us have d20 Modern, and we each seem to be happy with what we got. I just wanted to clear up the misconceptions about d20 Modern from your last post.

 

[C. Baize]

"no screen" means exactly that: no DM's Screen was used, so that the players could tell the DM wasn't fudging rolls.

As for the game, afterwards I went to the local Borders to take a look at the d20 Modern game book and see if my DM wasn't just being an ass about the rules. He's done that from time to time: ignoring or changing things he didn't like and not letting any of his players know about it ahead of time (same guy who insists in D&D that an invisible character that picks up a gold piece form the ground is no longer invisible).

Vitality shields Hit Points, and regenerates rapidly?

"Talents" that allow low-level characters to spontaneously regenerate Vitality?

Or that provide Damage Reduction?

Characters with severe gaping wounds from missing limbs have no statistic penalties, and only bleed to death if they are subjeted to a "bleeding" wound? (what else would you call a missing arm?!?!)

Handguns that literally CANNOT kill a person in one shot?!?!

And of course the class issues the original poster brought up.

Sorry folks I don't buy this in a modern-day setting, or even a futuristic one. If you want to play in an action-movie game, by all means use this system. If you want to play in a realistic game....this is not it.

As for "realistic" not being fun, ever heard of Shadowrun? Now THAT was a game! A halfway-skilled, or just lucky, person with a pistol could kill somebody in one shot if the target was unarmored. It never detracted from the fun of the game, it only added a new facet of play. Not to mention eliminating the psychotic action-movie mentallity that permeats D&D. Characters not only could but WOULD die, and easilly, if they were not careful.

Or was I the only person in that game who walked around a half-dozen slaved microdrones as permieter scouts, and enough low-profile armor to stop an assault rifle cold, when I went to the corner store?

I think you've misread a few things.
You're not counting the cost of those talents, nor the fact that it takes 6 levels to get 3 of them (to get that DR 3/-)... And I don't know what handguns you were looking at, but the lowest of them deals 2d4 damage. So, other than a Tough hero, that has the potential to completely incapacitate 1st level characters (and certainly has that capacity to do so to a Tough hero on a crit)... What gun, precisely did you see that literally could not take out a 1st level hero... at all?

As for mechanical penalties for loss of limb... where did you find targeting rules that would allow you to take a limb off? I don't remember those in the core book... nor any other WotC supplement for D20 Modern.

Vitality and Wound Points don't exist as per the rules as written for D20 Modern.

So... apart from those misrepresentations of D20 Modern... what are your real problems with it?

 

[Strutinan]

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[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I've run plenty of realistic, grim and gritty campaigns with d20 Modern.

The most I've had to do is some limb sever rules, triple the ranges, and increase the threat range of firearms.

Well, and up the hardness/hp of armored vehicles.

Once that was done, there wasn't even any complaints about the system.

it's quick, it's easy, and a .45 to the back of the head is a coup-de-grace.

 

[C. Baize]

My bad about the whole Wounds/Vitality thing, this was the same guy that ran a Star Wars d20 game, and the same guy to turn me off of that system as well. I SHOULD have been saying "Lethal/non-Lethal Damage".

Well, on that point you'll find agreement with your stance. Lethal / Non-lethal damage, as written, sucks pretty bad.

As for handguns...2d4 damage flat...sorry, but no. That means that the best a person can hope for is 8 points of damage, and unless you are shooting a chronicly sick person with a Con of 7 you will need to fill them full of lead before they notice they have been hurt. Otehrwise it is the D&D damage system all over again, and that flatly DOES NOT work as a real-world combat emulation system. Sorry folks, but real poeple do no have more hit points than solid iron anvils, no matter how "experienced" they are

Or, you know... something other than a Tough hero with average Constitution...
And only a few of the handguns do 2d4, but that wasn't really your assertion... it was that the guns couldn't kill people at all. A first level Tough hero can attain 17 HP with an 18 Con and the Toughness feat... so, sure... a .22 isn't going to flat out kill a Tough hero maxed out on hit points through Con and feats... Anything that deals 2d6 or better, however, can (that would be most of the handguns in D20 Modern). So, I'm going to call that a false assertion, or just not knowing the rules... I'm not going to guess which publicly.

The note about the bleeding missing arm comes from anotehr character in the party, the "Smart" Hero (being played by, frankly, a guy who was an idiot). When he heard gunfre from teh bathroom, his character picked up my character's chainsaw, truned it on, and then treid toa ttack the feds who came into the main room following me. Needless to say, many 1s were rolled, much blood splattered, and he ended up missing an arm. Still didn't stop him from climbing into the Caddy's back seat.

That's a houserulapalooza, there. Not even going to touch that one.

Also, my Con 16 lvl 4 Tough Hero (Robust, Dr 1/-, Toughness x2), could easilly survive the initial assault in the bathroom, that is my POINT. The guy should have been ground chuck: nobody has uzi-proof skin! (used Tec-9 stats I think, 2d6 damage and automatic fire). in the surprise round I got hit four times (one guy rolled a natural 1, the other a natural 2), for an average damage of 6 per shot (low rolls). So that was my 28 + 3d10 HP vs thier total of about 20 damage (reduced for DR).... Even given the two misses I should have been DEAD!

Depends... do you WANT to go through reams of character sheets?
I play D20 Modern so that I can virtually be in the modern era with an heroically statted character performing heroic feats of bravado and action, while bad mouthing the cops to their faces, daring them to arrest me, and then going out and slaying vampires, and shooting Hell Hounds...
I don't play the game to roleplay a job at Wal-Mart dealing with whiny customers, whiny co-workers, the IRS, a landlord, trigger-happy cops, PTA meetings, and overdraft charges.
But, hey... to each their own.

My System: I won't lie, my experiences with d20 Modern is one of the reasons that the Universal Decay system has a more realistic damage and combat model. The other reason is 15 years of martial arts practice, and a stint in the army. But just because I wrote a different combat system is absolutely no reason to think my arguments are without merit: if anything it proves that I am not somebody who is just content to lay back and take what I am shovelled! Also note that, like WotC, the core of my system is also available for free download...so my being here talking about this has zero profit motive

But it does have some potential hype motive.
Denigrate the system as written (with real and imagined/made up "problems"), and then offer up the lite version of your system... Draw your own conclusion as to how that appears...
Now... I'm not saying that hyping your system is a bad thing, by any means. But just be big enough to admit it.

Final Thought: Am I the only person to find it...odd...that one pro-d20M argument being used is that it allows for highly cinematic and "not boring" experiences like mine, while the OTHER pro-d20M argument is that it is a "realisitc" system because if "properly run" my character should have been dead? These two posistions are mutually exclusive, people! It only goes to show that the system is not as "tight" or "realistic" as either posistion is trying to portray it

Or it goes to show that different people have different versions of what is realistic or cinematic... OR they can use the rules as written to run a variety of game styles.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Final Thought: Am I the only person to find it...odd...that one pro-d20M argument being used is that it allows for highly cinematic and "not boring" experiences like mine, while the OTHER pro-d20M argument is that it is a "realisitc" system because if "properly run" my character should have been dead? These two posistions are mutually exclusive, people! It only goes to show that the system is not as "tight" or "realistic" as either posistion is trying to portray it

Having played Twilight 2000 and other sci-fi and modern games, I have something fairly simple to say:

A "tight", "realistic" and "gritty" system is NOT mutually exclusive from FUN!

I've played and ran games where it was realistic, gritty, and a lot of fun. And {GASP} I used d20 Modern to do it.

That's right, with Hit Points, Evasion, Damage Reduction, and everything else.

 

[Vigilance]

Yep... its very possible to run EITHER a cinematic game or an ultra-deadly game with d20 M.

This is a feature, not a bug.

 

[The Shaman]

My bad about the whole Wounds/Vitality thing, this was the same guy that ran a Star Wars d20 game, and the same guy to turn me off of that system as well.

And you still play with him because...?

I SHOULD have been saying "Lethal/non-Lethal Damage".

Please excuse my confusion, but that's not how lethal and non-lethal damage work in the game - what you described was VP/WP.

(And if I may disagree with C. Baize in this instance, some Modern gamers like the nonlethal rules as written, though admittedly we are probably in the minority.)

As for handguns...2d4 damage flat...sorry, but no. That means that the best a person can hope for is 8 points of damage, and unless you are shooting a chronicly sick person with a Con of 7 you will need to fill them full of lead before they notice they have been hurt.

On a critical hit you can do 16 points of damage, and there are feats and class features that allow expanded critical range or confirmation of a critical at the cost of an AP.

Otehrwise it is the D&D damage system all over again, and that flatly DOES NOT work as a real-world combat emulation system.

d20 Modern is not intended to be a real-world combat simulator, anymore than Dungeons and Dragons is expected to be a historical medieval combat simulator. However, that's not to say that you must entirely check you suspension of disbelief at the door.

Sorry folks, but real poeple do no have more hit points than solid iron anvils, no matter how "experienced" they are

And here we come to the crux of the matter: as in Dungeons and Dragons, hit points represent more than the physical ability to take damage - they are toughness, agility, luck, and karma all wrapped up in one easy to manage mechanic.

The note about the bleeding missing arm comes from anotehr character in the party, the "Smart" Hero (being played by, frankly, a guy who was an idiot). When he heard gunfre from teh bathroom, his character picked up my character's chainsaw, truned it on, and then treid toa ttack the feds who came into the main room following me. Needless to say, many 1s were rolled, much blood splattered, and he ended up missing an arm. Still didn't stop him from climbing into the Caddy's back seat.

Critical failures and fumbles are not a feature of the d20 Modern rules - again, this is something your GM houseruled into the game.

Also, my Con 16 lvl 4 Tough Hero (Robust, Dr 1/-, Toughness x2), could easilly survive the initial assault in the bathroom, that is my POINT. The guy should have been ground chuck: nobody has uzi-proof skin! (used Tec-9 stats I think, 2d6 damage and automatic fire). in the surprise round I got hit four times (one guy rolled a natural 1, the other a natural 2), for an average damage of 6 per shot (low rolls). So that was my 28 + 3d10 HP vs thier total of about 20 damage (reduced for DR).... Even given the two misses I should have been DEAD!

Again, hit points are not just the ability to absorb physical damage - this is as fundamental to Modern as it is to D&D.

Some gamers never seem to be able to suspend disbelief in this regard - however, that's not a problem with the rules of the game, but rather your expectations of how the rules should work. The rules as written work quite well, if you accept the underlying assumptions that go with them.

Also, a problem I've noted is that some GMs allow their players to create overpowered characters, and then complain that weapon damage or other combat rules are "unrealistic" or "underpowered." Using the standard array for ability scores is a good way to maintain a more dangerous environment for player characters, as many weapons can exceed the massive damage threshold pretty readily.

IMX you can have a "grim 'n' gritty" Modern game without tweaking a thing - all it takes is a bit of roleplaying to bring the mechanics to life. And since this is a roleplaying game, not a first-person shooter or a tactical wargame, that doesn't seem to be too much to ask.

Final Thought: Am I the only person to find it...odd...that one pro-d20M argument being used is that it allows for highly cinematic and "not boring" experiences like mine, while the OTHER pro-d20M argument is that it is a "realisitc" system because if "properly run" my character should have been dead? These two posistions are mutually exclusive, people! It only goes to show that the system is not as "tight" or "realistic" as either posistion is trying to portray it

I run a Modern military game using the combat and injury rules as written, and yes, it is both 'cinematic' in that the heroes can in fact be expected to behave like heroes while at the same time experiencing the rigors of battlefield combat. It is possible to have both using d20 Modern, IMX.

 

[Strutinan]

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[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I keep on hearing this argument for D&D-style hit points being "it is more than how much dmage you can sustain, it is also luck and experience in taking hits". To be perfectly blunt: that is a 100% lie.

How "lucky" is a door?

How "experenced" is an iron anvil?

If D&D-style "hit points" are more than the capacity to sustain damage and live, then why is the exact same system used for completely inanimate objects? Sorry folks, that makes no sense.

In living creatures it represents skill, luck, experience, which is why living creatures increase in HP, and the anvil doesn't.

See, humans start out with a handfull of HP, as does the anvil. After travelling across the country, the human reaches level 2 and gains HP. The anvil... is still and anvil.