Is this campaign broken? If so, how to fix it?

[tahsin]

Hi all,

Here's the sitrep:

I took over this campaign from another DM since everyone knew I enjoyed playing less and DMing more. I feel like the group made a sacrifice to allow me to DM since I would have probably found another group if they hadn't.

As such, I am taking over the rules and the campaign world from the previous DM.

Here are the campaign details:

Current Level: 7th

Characters: All characters are Gestalt Characters using rules from Unearthed Arcana.

Ability Scores: The average ability modifier of most players' ability scores comes out between +2 and +3. Meaning, on average, I see characters having original ability scores (before racial and item adjustments) in the 15-20 range for all stats. This is due to the method chosen by the previous DM for rolling stats. He did say beforehand that he wanted it on the high side.

Source Books Allowed: Pretty much any hardcover WotC book is fair game as long as you have DM (the previous DM in this case) approval.

Campaign World: It's a home-brew campaign world with a major city from which the PCs are based. Unfortunately, the previous DM has not provided a map as of yet.

My problems:

Since most PCs are picking complementary classes, as expected, they have good saves for all saving throws. I pitted them against a Dust Wight (CR 7) last night and while they were able to beat it with a moderate amount of effort, what came up is that almost all the PCs could beat it's DC 14 Supernatural Abilities save on a roll of anything except a 1. This makes it really hard to throw spells or spell-like abilities at them, which means I need to up the DCs or the CR of the monsters.

However, another problem, hit points for the characters are not necessarily through the roof. Some players have hit points in the 30s-40s range and another player has hit points in the 100-110 range (granted he's the dwarf, designed to be a tank, and has had good hit point rolls).

Armor Class: Two characters in the group, by virtue of character design and armor purchased, have Armor Classes above 27. This seems excessive for 7th level.

Attack Bonuses: Seem to be in line with the medium advancement.

So what do I do? My main problem is designing encounters to truly challenge them while not overpowering them.

Am I just complaining about nothing? Should I just assume to continuously throw CR 9 monsters at them and let the chips fall where they may? Or should I make a dramatic change? (something I feel would betray the previous DM and irritate most of the group since they've put so much time into their characters)

What have your experiences been with Gestalt Characters? Are they too powerful for any group of more than 3 players? Do you think they're a great way for gamers to get more out of their source material?

Thanks in advance

 

[Stormborn]

Broken is not the phrase I would use. Just because the PCs don't fit well into the EL/CR system doesn't mean the campaign is worthless, it just means that you need to make some adjustements.

I think your assumption of an EL 9 is probablly pretty good. Especially if you choose CR 9 things whose reason for being such is based not on how much straight hp damage they can do, but various other special abilities. Also, multiple lower level creatures working in a group with good tactics and some terrain advantages should tax them pretty well. Multiple creatures who work intellignetly are always goign to be a bigger challange than an equivalent CR single creture.

I would use 9 as a base and work in encounters between 7 and 11. A good rule of thumb is in a one session adventure you might have Base -2 (7), Base -2 (7), Base (9), Base +1 (10), and Base +2 (11). That would represent some initial challangesa Head Henchman, and a "Boss". I would also boost the stats of NPCs with class levels to be more in keeping with those of the PCs and I would at least make the BBEG gestalt.

From there you might consider runnign an adventure in a half sunken city or ruin where heavy armor is going to be a problem and/or throw in creatures with good touch attacks periodically. You don't want to completly do away with the efforts that the Tanks have made to get that high AC, but you should challange them periodically.

Do keep in mind that anything based on skill checks is going to be normal for a 7th level party. So throw in traps, roleplaying, and investigation to be more of the challange if they are just sweeping through combat.

 

[Numion]

Am I just complaining about nothing? Should I just assume to continuously throw CR 9 monsters at them and let the chips fall where they may? Or should I make a dramatic change? (something I feel would betray the previous DM and irritate most of the group since they've put so much time into their characters)

1) You're not complaining about nothing.

2) Yes.

3) It's usually a wise decision to start a new campaign when the DM changes, IMO. If you're an experienced DM (my guess) you could try to weather it out, but if this kind of game is not your cup of tea everyone will ultimately be unhappy. That might make it difficult when you're trying to start your next campaign.

What have your experiences been with Gestalt Characters? Are they too powerful for any group of more than 3 players? Do you think they're a great way for gamers to get more out of their source material?

1) I DM shackled city for 3 players on average, and it's about right for the adventure that's designed for 4 normal PCs. Maybe a bit too easy. But that might be because it is somewhat too challenging at points for a normal group, so IMX gestalt made a hard adventure for four into a normal adventure for 3 gestalt.

2) They're too powerful or the adventures are too easy - choose one

3) Yes. My players enjoy the increased number of powers, but also the synergies open whole new possibilities. It makes people reread the books all over, to see what strange combinations might work.

 

[tahsin]

Thanks. This was really helpful.

 

[Desdichado]

Wow. I could never even think about taking over someone's campaign. I don't feel I can GM effectively if it's not a campaign I've been running from the get-go.

Is the former GM still in the group?

 

[tahsin]

Wow. I could never even think about taking over someone's campaign. I don't feel I can GM effectively if it's not a campaign I've been running from the get-go.

Is the former GM still in the group?

Yes he is. He is playing a character that was previously an avataresque NPC in the current party. It definitely has been difficult, given the previous DM's organization has been underwhelming and his DMing style was unique.

In trying to make this campaign my own, I'm also trying not to offend him. For example, when we write adventure recaps, I give out much more XP, mostly because we play every other week and I want people to level fast.

 

[Piratecat]

First, you've made the grammar geek in me very happy by spelling "complementary" correctly. Thank you!

You may wish to try taking stock monsters and selectively increasing ability scores on certain ones; when you do, make them look different (older, scrawnier, fatter, stronger, etc.) This will let you increase the DCs on ability-related monster abilities without necessarily increasing monster hit dice or combat damage -- and it'll give you cool, unique villains. After all, what's more interesting, a hobgoblin shaman or an ancient bony half-blind and half-deaf grey-bearded hobgoblin shaman who uses an ear trumpet to hear between blasting the heroes with his spells?

 

[Nyaricus]

Broken is not the phrase I would use. Just because the PCs don't fit well into the EL/CR system doesn't mean the campaign is worthless, it just means that you need to make some adjustements.

I think your assumption of an EL 9 is probablly pretty good. Especially if you choose CR 9 things whose reason for being such is based not on how much straight hp damage they can do, but various other special abilities. Also, multiple lower level creatures working in a group with good tactics and some terrain advantages should tax them pretty well. Multiple creatures who work intellignetly are always goign to be a bigger challange than an equivalent CR single creture.

I would use 9 as a base and work in encounters between 7 and 11. A good rule of thumb is in a one session adventure you might have Base -2 (7), Base -2 (7), Base (9), Base +1 (10), and Base +2 (11). That would represent some initial challangesa Head Henchman, and a "Boss". I would also boost the stats of NPCs with class levels to be more in keeping with those of the PCs and I would at least make the BBEG gestalt.

From there you might consider runnign an adventure in a half sunken city or ruin where heavy armor is going to be a problem and/or throw in creatures with good touch attacks periodically. You don't want to completly do away with the efforts that the Tanks have made to get that high AC, but you should challange them periodically.

Do keep in mind that anything based on skill checks is going to be normal for a 7th level party. So throw in traps, roleplaying, and investigation to be more of the challange if they are just sweeping through combat.

QTF - this is what I was going to say, but said better.

 

[kanithardm]

Armor Class: Two characters in the group, by virtue of character design and armor purchased, have Armor Classes above 27. This seems excessive for 7th level.

Personally id say its execcive for 8 or 9th level, but if ur my firend 29 is about right for 1st level.

But thats because he cant add and neevr aplies max dex. And has +4 armor giving him +8. So dont feel bad i think that AC is kinda low for my campaign.