Angel Tarragon
Dawn Dragon
I'm not sure if the name of the Prestige Class is appropriate. The PrC seems more geared towards using offensive ablilities on outsiders.
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Is this prestige class fair?
- Thread starter Taneel BrightBlade
- Start date
Taneel BrightBlade
First Post
Arkhandus: thanks for saying that the damage in the second version didn't make sense. I hope I modified it so it is understandable
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
My take on this is somewhat different from some of the other posters:
1. Who is the class for?
It's obviously intended for paladins, but fighter/clerics, and fighter/wizards would both benefit from it.
A. Looking at it from a paladin's POV, the main features of the paladin class are:
full BAB
good HD
Smite progression (exponential)
Lay on Hands
Mount Progression
Spellcasting (minor)
Turn Undead
As initially written, a paladin taking this class would sacrifice mount progression, smite progression, most anything worthwhile he could hope to get from spellcasting, an d one level's worth of Lay on Hands for the abilities he's getting. He'd darn well better get something good out of it.
Mostly, though, he gets +2 to hit against Demons, a +3 brilliant energy sword or lance (really a mixed blessing considering that it's not useful against either most demons or most dragons and it's absolutely useless against undead), and Shining Fire--a ranged touch attack he can use up to 5 times per day for up to 10d6 damage (vs. dragons and outsiders) with a reflex save for half. That's not small potatoes, but with the reflex save and the fire type (devils are immune, demons are resistant, and red dragons are again immune), most paladins would be better off simply pulling out a decently magical bow and full attacking. Assuming two hits out of four attacks, that's 2d8+12 damage or so with no save. (+2 mighty [+2] bow assumed here.
Compared to the two smites and +10 damage he'd get on every smite (which has massive synergy with the mounted feats since the damage is multiplied on Spirited Charge, etc), mount abilities, and better spellcasting progression of a paladin, a single class paladin is going to be a noticably better combatant--even against demons and dragons. If you follow some peoples' suggestions and drop the base attack bonus or hit die, there's no point in a paladin even thinking about taking the class.
Instead of doing that, I would take a page from the Knight of the Chalice class and let the Dragon Knight have full paladin spellcasting and add an enhanced smite ability that lets him add his dragon knight level to smite damage against evil outsiders and evil dragons. (You could probably even give two extra smites (usable only on evil outsiders or dragons) over the 10 levels without breaking anything). I would also follow a previous suggestion and have any weapon the Dragon Knight wields become Evil Outsider Bane and Dragon Bane (in addition to any other qualities it might have) at 10th level. You might even consider making any weapon the Dragon Knight wields count as good aligned (or have it count as good aligned when he smites).
So, how about the fighter/cleric or fighter/mage?
At 1/2 caster level, they're sacrificing a lot by joining the class so it's not bad for them to get the various abilities--even the beefed up ones I suggested earlier. As a full BAB, 1/2 spellcasting class, this is competing against classes like Warpriest and Spellsword so it ought to have some beef if it won't be ignored. Furthermore, the main ability of the class as written--Shining Fire--is not too impressive when compared to what they could get with an extra five levels of spellcasting (even less so than it is for paladins). A Clr 3/Ftr 4/Dragon Knight 10 is casting 4th level cleric spells compared to the Ftr 4/Clr 13 who's casting 7th level spells. Given the choice between Shining Fire and an Empowered Flame Strike, I know which one I'd pick. Similarly, a Ftr 1/Wiz 6/Eldritch Knight 3/Dragon Knight 10 will cast 7th level spells but a Ftr 2/Wiz 8/Eldritch Knight 10 is casting 9th level spells. There's a big power gap between Power Word Blind and Meteor Swarm and there's no danger that 5 5 or 10d6 Shining Fires are going to cover it. (For that matter, compared to a spellsword build, I don't see anything remotely as strong as Channel Spell and reduced spell failure here).
So, for all the obvious ways I can see to get in, this could stand all the beefing up I've suggested without becoming overpowered. (And I don't see a lot of overpowering stuff with a Ftr 7/Divine Crusader of fire or healing 3 as the entry point either)
You might also want to consider some kind of mount progression (unless you're assuming that's included with Dragonfriend). The prerequisites and some of the benefits are geared towards mounted combat, but there's no abilities that improve the Dragon Knight's mounted combat stuff.
You also need to specify the DC for the Shining Fire reflex save. Is it 10+class level+cha bonus? Or 10 +1/2 class level+cha bonus? The first would make it a pretty tough reflex save--eventually better than a 9th level spell; the second would only be a moderate one--at best equal to a 5th level spell.
B. One of the real weaknesses (in my view) of the +1 level of existing spellcasting class mechanic is that it balances very poorly across the cleric/wizard or paladin/ranger divide. 1/1 casting is nice for a paladin or ranger but nothing gamebreaking since their spellcasting ability really isn't very significant. 1/1 casting is tremendously powerful for a cleric or wizard multiclass. Similarly, 1/2 casting is next to worthless for a paladin (it usually amounts to one extra spell--maybe two over ten levels) but is still noticable for a cleric or wizard.
In view of this, I'd recommend trying a new mechanic for the class that gives paladins full casting advancement but clerics and mages 1/2 advancement. I'm not quite sure how to phrase it, but "Special: A Dragon Knight adds his full dragon knight level to his paladin level to determine spells per day and caster level for paladin spells if he chooses to advance his paladin spellcasting" might be sufficient.
1. Who is the class for?
It's obviously intended for paladins, but fighter/clerics, and fighter/wizards would both benefit from it.
A. Looking at it from a paladin's POV, the main features of the paladin class are:
full BAB
good HD
Smite progression (exponential)
Lay on Hands
Mount Progression
Spellcasting (minor)
Turn Undead
As initially written, a paladin taking this class would sacrifice mount progression, smite progression, most anything worthwhile he could hope to get from spellcasting, an d one level's worth of Lay on Hands for the abilities he's getting. He'd darn well better get something good out of it.
Mostly, though, he gets +2 to hit against Demons, a +3 brilliant energy sword or lance (really a mixed blessing considering that it's not useful against either most demons or most dragons and it's absolutely useless against undead), and Shining Fire--a ranged touch attack he can use up to 5 times per day for up to 10d6 damage (vs. dragons and outsiders) with a reflex save for half. That's not small potatoes, but with the reflex save and the fire type (devils are immune, demons are resistant, and red dragons are again immune), most paladins would be better off simply pulling out a decently magical bow and full attacking. Assuming two hits out of four attacks, that's 2d8+12 damage or so with no save. (+2 mighty [+2] bow assumed here.
Compared to the two smites and +10 damage he'd get on every smite (which has massive synergy with the mounted feats since the damage is multiplied on Spirited Charge, etc), mount abilities, and better spellcasting progression of a paladin, a single class paladin is going to be a noticably better combatant--even against demons and dragons. If you follow some peoples' suggestions and drop the base attack bonus or hit die, there's no point in a paladin even thinking about taking the class.
Instead of doing that, I would take a page from the Knight of the Chalice class and let the Dragon Knight have full paladin spellcasting and add an enhanced smite ability that lets him add his dragon knight level to smite damage against evil outsiders and evil dragons. (You could probably even give two extra smites (usable only on evil outsiders or dragons) over the 10 levels without breaking anything). I would also follow a previous suggestion and have any weapon the Dragon Knight wields become Evil Outsider Bane and Dragon Bane (in addition to any other qualities it might have) at 10th level. You might even consider making any weapon the Dragon Knight wields count as good aligned (or have it count as good aligned when he smites).
So, how about the fighter/cleric or fighter/mage?
At 1/2 caster level, they're sacrificing a lot by joining the class so it's not bad for them to get the various abilities--even the beefed up ones I suggested earlier. As a full BAB, 1/2 spellcasting class, this is competing against classes like Warpriest and Spellsword so it ought to have some beef if it won't be ignored. Furthermore, the main ability of the class as written--Shining Fire--is not too impressive when compared to what they could get with an extra five levels of spellcasting (even less so than it is for paladins). A Clr 3/Ftr 4/Dragon Knight 10 is casting 4th level cleric spells compared to the Ftr 4/Clr 13 who's casting 7th level spells. Given the choice between Shining Fire and an Empowered Flame Strike, I know which one I'd pick. Similarly, a Ftr 1/Wiz 6/Eldritch Knight 3/Dragon Knight 10 will cast 7th level spells but a Ftr 2/Wiz 8/Eldritch Knight 10 is casting 9th level spells. There's a big power gap between Power Word Blind and Meteor Swarm and there's no danger that 5 5 or 10d6 Shining Fires are going to cover it. (For that matter, compared to a spellsword build, I don't see anything remotely as strong as Channel Spell and reduced spell failure here).
So, for all the obvious ways I can see to get in, this could stand all the beefing up I've suggested without becoming overpowered. (And I don't see a lot of overpowering stuff with a Ftr 7/Divine Crusader of fire or healing 3 as the entry point either)
You might also want to consider some kind of mount progression (unless you're assuming that's included with Dragonfriend). The prerequisites and some of the benefits are geared towards mounted combat, but there's no abilities that improve the Dragon Knight's mounted combat stuff.
You also need to specify the DC for the Shining Fire reflex save. Is it 10+class level+cha bonus? Or 10 +1/2 class level+cha bonus? The first would make it a pretty tough reflex save--eventually better than a 9th level spell; the second would only be a moderate one--at best equal to a 5th level spell.
B. One of the real weaknesses (in my view) of the +1 level of existing spellcasting class mechanic is that it balances very poorly across the cleric/wizard or paladin/ranger divide. 1/1 casting is nice for a paladin or ranger but nothing gamebreaking since their spellcasting ability really isn't very significant. 1/1 casting is tremendously powerful for a cleric or wizard multiclass. Similarly, 1/2 casting is next to worthless for a paladin (it usually amounts to one extra spell--maybe two over ten levels) but is still noticable for a cleric or wizard.
In view of this, I'd recommend trying a new mechanic for the class that gives paladins full casting advancement but clerics and mages 1/2 advancement. I'm not quite sure how to phrase it, but "Special: A Dragon Knight adds his full dragon knight level to his paladin level to determine spells per day and caster level for paladin spells if he chooses to advance his paladin spellcasting" might be sufficient.
