P
preacher of nothing
Guest
Actually Fenmarel....you make a very good point. And so, without further complicating things, i step down from this thread
Au revoir
Au revoir
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ISRP Basic How-To Seminar
- Thread starter WizO_Trelian
- Start date
WizO_Trelian
First Post
Hi, Fen! Nice to see you around! and as the Preacher said, you do make a good point. Some of them. 
Re: flaming
I saw some heat based on a comment that I agree was out of line but didn't see till the reply was already posted. No actual flames though and it resulted in more open communication between the ones involved. But your mileage may vary.
Re: locking the thread
So it's bad form to have left it open? Again a difference of opinion. To me it wasn't just a summarization of a past event but also the opening for futher discussion that couldn't take place in an hour-long seminar. I don't just want to preach, I want to learn. I also want to see what actual misconceptions are out there so they can be discussed. If it's again the flaming that you think should have locked the thread, see above.
Sounds like my post, lol! I did say "a character sheet is good" and "don't only play with people who know their DnD stats." Maybe it's because I've played in so many game systems but to me the term "character sheet" has no specific DnD connotations. To me a character sheet implies just what you say, "something to give an idea of powers and limitations."
Very nicely put! If people are playing in a way that you consider patently absurd and annoying but following the rules, often the best you can do is lead by example and try to play around them. Trying to force them to rp "correctly" is more likely to drive away good, experienced roleplayers from the frustration of the attempt than to drive away the bad rpers, who tend to be equally bad about accepting correction or criticism.
Hope to continue to see you around now and then, and good luck with Always Autumn!
Re: flaming
I saw some heat based on a comment that I agree was out of line but didn't see till the reply was already posted. No actual flames though and it resulted in more open communication between the ones involved. But your mileage may vary.
Re: locking the thread
So it's bad form to have left it open? Again a difference of opinion. To me it wasn't just a summarization of a past event but also the opening for futher discussion that couldn't take place in an hour-long seminar. I don't just want to preach, I want to learn. I also want to see what actual misconceptions are out there so they can be discussed. If it's again the flaming that you think should have locked the thread, see above.
Sounds like my post, lol! I did say "a character sheet is good" and "don't only play with people who know their DnD stats." Maybe it's because I've played in so many game systems but to me the term "character sheet" has no specific DnD connotations. To me a character sheet implies just what you say, "something to give an idea of powers and limitations."
Very nicely put! If people are playing in a way that you consider patently absurd and annoying but following the rules, often the best you can do is lead by example and try to play around them. Trying to force them to rp "correctly" is more likely to drive away good, experienced roleplayers from the frustration of the attempt than to drive away the bad rpers, who tend to be equally bad about accepting correction or criticism.
Hope to continue to see you around now and then, and good luck with Always Autumn!
F
Fenmarel
Guest
So it's bad form to have left it open? Again a difference of opinion. To me it wasn't just a summarization of a past event but also the opening for futher discussion that couldn't take place in an hour-long seminar.
Sorry for not using the quotes didn't feel like it since I'm about half asleep. Further discussion on this topic has taken place in many threads. Some have pointed to Tharivious' thread, I believe Nugan had one or two and several other players that I can't remember. These threads, though noble in their intent NEVER change a thing. As I and a few of the folks that posted on this thread have stated the ones that truly need to read the posts aren't looking at the forums or ignoring the advice given. Usually what I've seen, and others that have followed the "self help" threads, is that usually bad feelings develop. One player gets tired of reading about noobs making bad mistakes so makes one about fogeys thinking they know everything, fogey replies using bits and pieces of actions or comments from the other player's rp sessions, noob gets ticked pm's fogey with hateful message but not enough to get noob banned, fogey informs friends of problem and they promptly avoid noob. That is what comes from these topics. That is the reality of the situation. As I said before people are going to do what they want, when they want and how they want no matter how many times someone comes up with posts telling them they are doing it wrong. What makes people think that just because this is a "new" thread that the facts will change?
Seriously go through the topics and look who posts. You have the same people over and over again with a new person, often times just using a new name so others won't truly know who is doing the talking, every now and then. I had one new player after visiting the forums on my behest inform me "good lord what do the players expect everyone to be a professional roleplayer or something? sheesh I thought I was going to have fun trying this out but the boards make it sound like work and not fun". He went on with references to a post saying be original and unique but stay away from "odd" things. Don't most view original and unique as odd at first he asked me. He then commented on the fact that the topic had several posts about powerful characters and not to play them saying well from what I've seen there really isn't a weak character, they act weak and a description could even say they are weak but when something goes down suddenly they are the battlemasters of legend ready to slay anything that stands in their way.......must be that everyone is a master of deception. Funny thing was I couldn't really offer any arguments to his observations. Even the people that post about not playing powerful characters play them. So why should a noob listen to what they say in a topic supposedly to help them be a better roleplayer?
If you truly want the new rpers or the ones that might have some time around but are struggling to become better lead by example as was stated earlier. Don't tell a new player to not play a powerful character when you yourself sign in with a character powerful enough that deities would start to take notice. Don't ask them to make their characters vulnerable in combat when you make a character that can only be killed by the sting of a red, purple and black striped scorpion with two tails only on Sundays and it is partly cloudy with a humidity of 83.5%. Don't expect them to take note of every single thing a character might do when they are in a room when you can't be arsed to take note of anything but the actions of your character's current love interest. Don't ask them to play down to earth commoners with no inkling of things outside their realm of expertise when you play the character that knows everything about everything or has a book on the subject and can find the answer in a day. When you can say honestly to yourself that you are doing none of that then the players will see it and either think you are crazy because any other character could mop the floor with you or want to make a character more like that..... something believable.
Sorry for not using the quotes didn't feel like it since I'm about half asleep. Further discussion on this topic has taken place in many threads. Some have pointed to Tharivious' thread, I believe Nugan had one or two and several other players that I can't remember. These threads, though noble in their intent NEVER change a thing. As I and a few of the folks that posted on this thread have stated the ones that truly need to read the posts aren't looking at the forums or ignoring the advice given. Usually what I've seen, and others that have followed the "self help" threads, is that usually bad feelings develop. One player gets tired of reading about noobs making bad mistakes so makes one about fogeys thinking they know everything, fogey replies using bits and pieces of actions or comments from the other player's rp sessions, noob gets ticked pm's fogey with hateful message but not enough to get noob banned, fogey informs friends of problem and they promptly avoid noob. That is what comes from these topics. That is the reality of the situation. As I said before people are going to do what they want, when they want and how they want no matter how many times someone comes up with posts telling them they are doing it wrong. What makes people think that just because this is a "new" thread that the facts will change?
Seriously go through the topics and look who posts. You have the same people over and over again with a new person, often times just using a new name so others won't truly know who is doing the talking, every now and then. I had one new player after visiting the forums on my behest inform me "good lord what do the players expect everyone to be a professional roleplayer or something? sheesh I thought I was going to have fun trying this out but the boards make it sound like work and not fun". He went on with references to a post saying be original and unique but stay away from "odd" things. Don't most view original and unique as odd at first he asked me. He then commented on the fact that the topic had several posts about powerful characters and not to play them saying well from what I've seen there really isn't a weak character, they act weak and a description could even say they are weak but when something goes down suddenly they are the battlemasters of legend ready to slay anything that stands in their way.......must be that everyone is a master of deception. Funny thing was I couldn't really offer any arguments to his observations. Even the people that post about not playing powerful characters play them. So why should a noob listen to what they say in a topic supposedly to help them be a better roleplayer?
If you truly want the new rpers or the ones that might have some time around but are struggling to become better lead by example as was stated earlier. Don't tell a new player to not play a powerful character when you yourself sign in with a character powerful enough that deities would start to take notice. Don't ask them to make their characters vulnerable in combat when you make a character that can only be killed by the sting of a red, purple and black striped scorpion with two tails only on Sundays and it is partly cloudy with a humidity of 83.5%. Don't expect them to take note of every single thing a character might do when they are in a room when you can't be arsed to take note of anything but the actions of your character's current love interest. Don't ask them to play down to earth commoners with no inkling of things outside their realm of expertise when you play the character that knows everything about everything or has a book on the subject and can find the answer in a day. When you can say honestly to yourself that you are doing none of that then the players will see it and either think you are crazy because any other character could mop the floor with you or want to make a character more like that..... something believable.
T
Tharivious_Meliamne
Guest
Just explaining a few things either pertaining toward things I've either said or identify with here from the other side...
Good point on them often going south, which is an unfortunate thing, most certainly. I know I've started a few threads that have done so. At the same time, even when a thread goes downhill, it can be beneficial in a way, as it can open a public dialog, get people thinking, and bring light to something that some players may not consider. And if a thread intended to be helpful can reach a few people with a new idea, then that's a small victory at least, and to make a point that may be correct from one view be shown at a different angle where it is shown to not work, then that's another small victory as it brings out more opinions. Discussion is a good thing in my opinion, it's part of why we have these forums in the first place.
Originality does come in many forms, which is a good thing. There's originality in playing something unexpected from the source material used, there's originality in playing something never done before that falls into the "where did that come from?" category, and there's the unexpected in playing something in the way it comes prepackaged. Just a matter of different flavors of originality, all of them work when done in a way that can make people think when they see it, it's all in how it's played, which is the real beauty of a site where you can play just about anything. That kind of freedom is, to use an art metaphor, a huge canvas to work with, the type of paint used is nowhere near as important as the end result of the picture.
If it applies to others' comments, then I do see your friend's point and won't dispute it, but I see the other side as well. It's a matter of balancing things really. Just have realistic expectations for how a character can turn out based off of what it is or could be, and it should go well enough. It's a balance that comes with time and experience, but once it's found, it makes character creation more fun, just a matter of not externalizing things when a character doesn't take off the way the player wants it to.
Having an area of expertise by no means rules out other options. Most characters dabble in other areas of study or training. It's a natural progression. I think this is another of those fine lines that tends to get blurred a lot, where a character goes from focusing on one thing and dabbling in others to mastering all things. As long as a character sticks to the concept of the character in a way that doesn't hinder everyone around them, then it's as valid a concept as any. No harm no foul as they say. But at the same time, it can be helpful to offer suggestions of what limits seem most pallatable to most players, such as not being a master of everything, and what tends to turn people away. Falls back to being where the center of balance is in terms of being realistic with what a character can be capable of. Likewise with playing something believable, it's a matter of sticking to the character concept, thinking things through and developing that character into what makes sense. It isn't what a character can do that makes a great character, that stuff is just the hardware; it's how the character does things, if it makes for memorable meetings that the character's player and those who know it and accept it enjoy roleplaying, that makes a character truly great to deal with.
Always good to see you post Fen, you always bring a lot to a discussion when you do. I'll second Trelian with wishing you luck with Always Autumn.
Threads may not lead to direct change, but they are an opportunity to get some word out on the opinions of experienced players and new players alike, and while the message may not change, it does provide a chance for newer readers to see things from older posts that they might not think to read, and get involved in the discussion. This is a lot of where Preacher's suggestion of offering a redirect to the boards in a more prominent way for the chats would be helpful by making threads that are generally well received and appreciated more readily available.Fenmarel said:
Good point on them often going south, which is an unfortunate thing, most certainly. I know I've started a few threads that have done so. At the same time, even when a thread goes downhill, it can be beneficial in a way, as it can open a public dialog, get people thinking, and bring light to something that some players may not consider. And if a thread intended to be helpful can reach a few people with a new idea, then that's a small victory at least, and to make a point that may be correct from one view be shown at a different angle where it is shown to not work, then that's another small victory as it brings out more opinions. Discussion is a good thing in my opinion, it's part of why we have these forums in the first place.
Heh, as it seems this pertains to one of my comments here, allow me to elaborate on how I meant it, thought it was slightly more clear. Mine wasn't meant to double-back on itself, but to encourage many ways of working on original ideas in the chats.
Originality does come in many forms, which is a good thing. There's originality in playing something unexpected from the source material used, there's originality in playing something never done before that falls into the "where did that come from?" category, and there's the unexpected in playing something in the way it comes prepackaged. Just a matter of different flavors of originality, all of them work when done in a way that can make people think when they see it, it's all in how it's played, which is the real beauty of a site where you can play just about anything. That kind of freedom is, to use an art metaphor, a huge canvas to work with, the type of paint used is nowhere near as important as the end result of the picture.
If it applies to others' comments, then I do see your friend's point and won't dispute it, but I see the other side as well. It's a matter of balancing things really. Just have realistic expectations for how a character can turn out based off of what it is or could be, and it should go well enough. It's a balance that comes with time and experience, but once it's found, it makes character creation more fun, just a matter of not externalizing things when a character doesn't take off the way the player wants it to.
This is an excellent point, it's why a lot of my opinions have shifted over the past year from having a more extremist viewpoint to one more tolerant of other styles. I've seen that sort of situation enough times to know it's inavoidable at the moment, so when something like that comes up, it's easier to brush off the dust, get back on the proverbial horse, and play the way you really enjoy playing. But at the same time, there are many ways to play through things, which is where having helpful-intent threads can be useful, by offering examples of different ways of doing things.
Heh, I'm guilty of that one, especially as of late due to trying to multitask while in the chats. :embarrass This is another point I've learned the error of trying to point to over past threads and my recent time away from the chats. The clarity that stepping away from something for a while and then returning to it can provide is always an interesting experience, and this is one of them. It goes back to playing your character as they would be played, rather than trying to manage things to a precision clockwork mechanism. Noticing things around, reacting, it all boils down to how the character would react to things, not how others want them to react, and what the player is capable of pulling off effectively.
As this slides into one of my other mentionings earlier on this thread, I'll expand on my explanation and reasoning:
Having an area of expertise by no means rules out other options. Most characters dabble in other areas of study or training. It's a natural progression. I think this is another of those fine lines that tends to get blurred a lot, where a character goes from focusing on one thing and dabbling in others to mastering all things. As long as a character sticks to the concept of the character in a way that doesn't hinder everyone around them, then it's as valid a concept as any. No harm no foul as they say. But at the same time, it can be helpful to offer suggestions of what limits seem most pallatable to most players, such as not being a master of everything, and what tends to turn people away. Falls back to being where the center of balance is in terms of being realistic with what a character can be capable of. Likewise with playing something believable, it's a matter of sticking to the character concept, thinking things through and developing that character into what makes sense. It isn't what a character can do that makes a great character, that stuff is just the hardware; it's how the character does things, if it makes for memorable meetings that the character's player and those who know it and accept it enjoy roleplaying, that makes a character truly great to deal with.
Always good to see you post Fen, you always bring a lot to a discussion when you do.
I'll second Trelian with wishing you luck with Always Autumn.
F
Fenmarel
Guest
Some good points Thar. As for the discussion I bring out when I post it usually involves phrases like "what was he thinking and you must be crazy" before or after a statement
Preacher's idea of a redirect has been mentioned MANY times over the years. Twice by myself for certain. The response that was given for there not being one was "that type of change would not go over well with our players. If they wish to go to the forums they will go we can't force them" but then again this answer was given by the same people that said "a setting using Neverwinter Nights?!?! That is just stupid and no one would bother roleplaying on a video game" guess those people should check out the NWN rp servers(not the alternative ones unless you know for sure you aren't going into a cyber module...folks will do anything to get their rocks off) and they will see that actually the idea was a sound one.
I used to hold to the same thinking about the "help" threads as you do now Thar. When I saw one I would post unless what I had to say was already mentioned in an effort to bring awareness to the masses. After a few years of posting I realized that the masses were just the same old players posting just to air grievances or using examples from their own RP sessions to make themself look like RP gods or some other nonesense. Most of the posting that does happen is in the tone of a rant which in all actuality hurts a cause instead of helping. For example if I see some moron on TV or hear them on the radio ranting and raving about the evilness of this that or the other in a tone designed to degrade others I roll my eyes and mutter something like "nutcase, fruitcake, psycho, must have rode the short bus, not playing with a full deck of cards, a drumstick shy of a picnic" things like that. Much like I did, and others from the posts they have made here in this thread, when I started to read through things after Trel's original post.
Most new players won't engage in in these discusssions ESPECIALLY when people openly bash other playing styles. Seriously how many NEW players(those with less than a month experience of regularly coming to the site not total time in hours spent on site equalling a month) have posted in this thread? The reason I used a month because in that time a player has been around long enough to see all sorts of crazy stuff and have formed opinions on a few of them. What they see is those that have been around for awhile complaining about what the "noobs" are doing and don't feel welcome in these discussions. I saw one post meant to help new players that turned into bashing on a new player that decided to ask some simple questions. Players were using indirect methods to question their intelligence and common sense. What some view as common sense others find baffling......for example I find it common sense that when I adjust my sights on an M-16 A2 Service Rifle at 26 meters the base adjustment will be the same at 300 meters before you factor in wind,sunlight conditions, other weather factors and shooting up or downhill. While you might find it common sense to know the different types of memory sticks that go into computers and which ones can be replaced with other types without thinking. Common sense itself is a matter of perspective pertaining to certain situations and environments therefore not a common virtue.
I sincerely believe that the summarization hit on most of the things players have a problem with in the rp rooms. Of course there are going to be small bits here and there left out EVEN in a lengthy discussion. With this in mind a well thought out post such as the one that Trelian made could serve new players very well if they bother to read the post. There are somethings that even if someone takes the time to type it all up players won't consider until they've experienced them first hand by observation and the inevitable mistakes everyone makes when trying something new.
Preacher's idea of a redirect has been mentioned MANY times over the years. Twice by myself for certain. The response that was given for there not being one was "that type of change would not go over well with our players. If they wish to go to the forums they will go we can't force them" but then again this answer was given by the same people that said "a setting using Neverwinter Nights?!?! That is just stupid and no one would bother roleplaying on a video game" guess those people should check out the NWN rp servers(not the alternative ones unless you know for sure you aren't going into a cyber module...folks will do anything to get their rocks off) and they will see that actually the idea was a sound one.
I used to hold to the same thinking about the "help" threads as you do now Thar. When I saw one I would post unless what I had to say was already mentioned in an effort to bring awareness to the masses. After a few years of posting I realized that the masses were just the same old players posting just to air grievances or using examples from their own RP sessions to make themself look like RP gods or some other nonesense. Most of the posting that does happen is in the tone of a rant which in all actuality hurts a cause instead of helping. For example if I see some moron on TV or hear them on the radio ranting and raving about the evilness of this that or the other in a tone designed to degrade others I roll my eyes and mutter something like "nutcase, fruitcake, psycho, must have rode the short bus, not playing with a full deck of cards, a drumstick shy of a picnic" things like that. Much like I did, and others from the posts they have made here in this thread, when I started to read through things after Trel's original post.
Most new players won't engage in in these discusssions ESPECIALLY when people openly bash other playing styles. Seriously how many NEW players(those with less than a month experience of regularly coming to the site not total time in hours spent on site equalling a month) have posted in this thread? The reason I used a month because in that time a player has been around long enough to see all sorts of crazy stuff and have formed opinions on a few of them. What they see is those that have been around for awhile complaining about what the "noobs" are doing and don't feel welcome in these discussions. I saw one post meant to help new players that turned into bashing on a new player that decided to ask some simple questions. Players were using indirect methods to question their intelligence and common sense. What some view as common sense others find baffling......for example I find it common sense that when I adjust my sights on an M-16 A2 Service Rifle at 26 meters the base adjustment will be the same at 300 meters before you factor in wind,sunlight conditions, other weather factors and shooting up or downhill. While you might find it common sense to know the different types of memory sticks that go into computers and which ones can be replaced with other types without thinking. Common sense itself is a matter of perspective pertaining to certain situations and environments therefore not a common virtue.
I sincerely believe that the summarization hit on most of the things players have a problem with in the rp rooms. Of course there are going to be small bits here and there left out EVEN in a lengthy discussion. With this in mind a well thought out post such as the one that Trelian made could serve new players very well if they bother to read the post. There are somethings that even if someone takes the time to type it all up players won't consider until they've experienced them first hand by observation and the inevitable mistakes everyone makes when trying something new.
B
Bhryn Astairre
Guest
Duh, need to check threads more often.
Thankies?
If you wanna get hold of me, you know my email etc whatever..
Dontella
First Post
*peers in after Bhrynny*
Hmph, well of course I am the best, I'm me!
*Grins all cute-like*
I'm always about to lend a hand to new folks, unless I happen to be busy behind the screen. A few times now I've logged in, and forgotten I was logged in.. and went off to do other things.
I don't know if it will help, but.. it's something.
Hmph, well of course I am the best, I'm me!
*Grins all cute-like*
I'm always about to lend a hand to new folks, unless I happen to be busy behind the screen. A few times now I've logged in, and forgotten I was logged in.. and went off to do other things.
I don't know if it will help, but.. it's something.
W
WizO_Adele
Guest
I thought my reasoning behind some of the edits in this thread were self explanatory, but I've been told by someone they were not so hopefully this will clear the air.
I do not moderate the ISRP boards, but have assigned Pounamu to do so. She does a very good and thorough job in my opinion. That said, the original inflammatory comment slipped through the cracks. No one complained, the thread appears innocuous at first glance and not the usual thread to need to go over with a fine tooth comb. As far as the Message Boards go we do not have many resource hours allocated to go over the boards that carefully, and we rely heavily on reports. However, in this case it came to my attention after the fact, that the comment was made and several replies had been made to it that clearly were upset about the content. Therefore the reference to the exact site was removed. Without that reference the original statement is not harassing to anyone in particular but merely commenting on the lack of quality alternative sites.
At that point I went through the thread to removing anything that made the discussion specific and personal, including names and a few other references. This was to leave as much of the original discussion intact as possible, while not crossing over into harassment territory. I hesitate to delete entire posts without permission from their users. If those involved feel they would be better off if the entire discussion, including the defense were deleted, then they are always welcome to e-mail me. Otherwise I generally presume everyone is content unless someone says something to me.
If someone is posting information you find harassing to you personally and you would like to have it removed or looked at, please report it. I am sorry but at this time with our current resources we simply cannot catch every single infraction and sometimes it is hard to tell if someone (or someone real, I do not keep track of whether or not other role-playing sites have members/owners on this site) has even been offended. Please bare in mind we do ask that in situations of harassment in order for a warning to stick we need to know that you have attempted to express dissatisfaction to the instigator with a request for the activities to stop, only then when they continue can we issue an official warning.
Please take a moment to communicate with us before complaining about our actions or inaction.
I do not moderate the ISRP boards, but have assigned Pounamu to do so. She does a very good and thorough job in my opinion. That said, the original inflammatory comment slipped through the cracks. No one complained, the thread appears innocuous at first glance and not the usual thread to need to go over with a fine tooth comb. As far as the Message Boards go we do not have many resource hours allocated to go over the boards that carefully, and we rely heavily on reports. However, in this case it came to my attention after the fact, that the comment was made and several replies had been made to it that clearly were upset about the content. Therefore the reference to the exact site was removed. Without that reference the original statement is not harassing to anyone in particular but merely commenting on the lack of quality alternative sites.
At that point I went through the thread to removing anything that made the discussion specific and personal, including names and a few other references. This was to leave as much of the original discussion intact as possible, while not crossing over into harassment territory. I hesitate to delete entire posts without permission from their users. If those involved feel they would be better off if the entire discussion, including the defense were deleted, then they are always welcome to e-mail me. Otherwise I generally presume everyone is content unless someone says something to me.
If someone is posting information you find harassing to you personally and you would like to have it removed or looked at, please report it. I am sorry but at this time with our current resources we simply cannot catch every single infraction and sometimes it is hard to tell if someone (or someone real, I do not keep track of whether or not other role-playing sites have members/owners on this site) has even been offended. Please bare in mind we do ask that in situations of harassment in order for a warning to stick we need to know that you have attempted to express dissatisfaction to the instigator with a request for the activities to stop, only then when they continue can we issue an official warning.
Please take a moment to communicate with us before complaining about our actions or inaction.
C
Chelyrra_Eredyn
Guest
useful :thumbsup:
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