Issue with Immortality through Spellcasting

[Beefermatic]

So, an issue I've noticed with the Divine Ascension spell is that it can be used like the Alchemy-Blacksmithing-Enchanting exploit from Skyrim. That is to say the caster could use it to transform themselves into a higher Divine Rank, then use that new level of power to simply cast the spell again at a higher level transforming themselves into an even higher state, and repeat this again and again. I'm sure this has been addressed but there needs to be some mitigating factor.

Honestly. I really don't like the idea of divinity through spellcasting anyway as I think casters are strong enough already, and they shouldn't be able to just become gods using magic, it cheapens divinity and makes an already overpowered ability even stronger for no reason really. But I was curious on all of your thoughts or if there was a preexisting thread about this?

Personally, I would put an addendum to the spell saying that the spell cannot be augmented past its initial casting and only from the base character's caster level and skill check and it does not stack with the Infinite Ability Score ability or any ability that increases your check to infinite. That way it cannot be abused.

 

[Obly99]

I don't have any particulary problem with the spell with 2 conditions for my setting:
You cannot use mitigation factors for reduce the DC
No combinable that Spellcraft check with Infinite or Ultimate Skill Mastery.
For the rest, unless specific builds, your Spellcraft bonus is Int+HD+3+DR. The various Heavenly and others do not apply to skill checks.
Taking my Tiamat as an example: she will max out a 429 check if she uses surge (barely a temporary Hero Deity, worthless in a fight of Sidereal level).
My Kronos: 286 with surge. A temporary prophet.
My Nowhere King: 684 with surge. A temporary Quasi Deity.
Because of the two rules above that I use, I have reduced the final DC for all the tiers.

 

[Beefermatic]

I don't have any particulary problem with the spell with 2 conditions for my setting:
You cannot use mitigation factors for reduce the DC
No combinable that Spellcraft check with Infinite or Ultimate Skill Mastery.
For the rest, unless specific builds, your Spellcraft bonus is Int+HD+3+DR. The various Heavenly and others do not apply to skill checks.
Taking my Tiamat as an example: she will max out a 429 check if she uses surge (barely a temporary Hero Deity, worthless in a fight of Sidereal level).
My Kronos: 286 with surge. A temporary prophet.
My Nowhere King: 684 with surge. A temporary Quasi Deity.
Because of the two rules above that I use, I have reduced the final DC for all the tiers.

Nice that's a solid answer. So you had basically the same idea I had to reign it in.

 

[Obly99]

Nice that's a solid answer. So you had basically the same idea I had to reign it in.

Generally yes. It's a broken spell for the wrong reasons: at low-medium levels totally unusable for unthinkable DCs (with exception of abuse of mitigator factors). As soon as you get Infinite [Int] you rocket off to infinity and beyond. That's why I went for an urgent hotfix: the two homebrew to avoid exploits at high levels and reduced DC so that it is also useful at Intermediate Divinity levels onwards. For my setting I took inspiration from the rare cantrips (Rare Cantrips – d20PFSRD). You cannot learn/use Ascension (even with Alter Reality) without first learning about it from an outside source that teach you about it. In my setting it is a secret jealously guarded by few and difficult to acquire.

 

[Beefermatic]

I don't have any particulary problem with the spell with 2 conditions for my setting:
You cannot use mitigation factors for reduce the DC
No combinable that Spellcraft check with Infinite or Ultimate Skill Mastery.
For the rest, unless specific builds, your Spellcraft bonus is Int+HD+3+DR. The various Heavenly and others do not apply to skill checks.
Taking my Tiamat as an example: she will max out a 429 check if she uses surge (barely a temporary Hero Deity, worthless in a fight of Sidereal level).
My Kronos: 286 with surge. A temporary prophet.
My Nowhere King: 684 with surge. A temporary Quasi Deity.
Because of the two rules above that I use, I have reduced the final DC for all the tiers.

Interesting that you reduce the DC, see I have feats and divine abilities that increase skill checks like Skill Emphasis (+3 to one skill) Divine Skill Focus (+60 to one skill check) and Divine Skill Emphasis (+10 to 1 skill, can be taken multiple times) so I'd need to keep the DCs what they are lol

 

[Obly99]

Interesting that you reduce the DC, see I have feats and divine abilities that increase skill checks like Skill Emphasis (+3 to one skill) Divine Skill Focus (+60 to one skill check) and Divine Skill Emphasis (+10 to 1 skill, can be taken multiple times) so I'd need to keep the DCs what they are lol

Even I use that abilities. The reduction to DC is due to the fact tha Ascension in my setting is... well, not so "gratis" and without risks as the normal versione:

If the divinity is temporary, he take a penalty to all Rolls equal to the sum of the ascended creature HD + the gained DR as long the spell is in effect (like you take a penalty to give another creature a mythic rank with the spell Ascension – d20PFSRD)

If the divinity is permanent, he must consume an amount of quintessence (even from outside sources) appropriate for the final template obtained. This quintessence must be consumed even if you cast it with Alter Reality or as a supernatural ability (like dweomerkeeper). This is to give a pat on the teeth to the abusers of "I cast it many times in a row to increase my bonus from time to time because it doesn't cost anything anyway". You can cast the spell on yourself but must found extra sources for the quintessense.

Also, I increase the casting time to 8 hours from 1 minute but changed the duration from 20 to 24 hours (temporary) and from permanent to istantaneous (for the permanent versione).

 

[Beefermatic]

Generally yes. It's a broken spell for the wrong reasons: at low-medium levels totally unusable for unthinkable DCs (with exception of abuse of mitigator factors). As soon as you get Infinite [Int] you rocket off to infinity and beyond. That's why I went for an urgent hotfix: the two homebrew to avoid exploits at high levels and reduced DC so that it is also useful at Intermediate Divinity levels onwards. For my setting I took inspiration from the rare cantrips (Rare Cantrips – d20PFSRD). You cannot learn/use Ascension (even with Alter Reality) without first learning about it from an outside source that teach you about it. In my setting it is a secret jealously guarded by few and difficult to acquire.

I like the way you handle and mitigate it. I do have one other factor I put in which is a monetary cost. So with the Dragon Ascendent a class from the Draconomicon, the dragon can become a God but must eat their hoarde and it must be at least 100,000 gp. I do something similar, making the 100,000 gp cost go up at a 10 fold factor each additional Divine rank past 1 as a material component. I however make it so it must be something of that value or equivalent which can be highly subjective. It could be at the cost of the faith of a paladin, or the child of a father, the very forest a druid has sworn to protect, etc. Never a light decision. Something of such value as to create a total character overhaul.

 

[Obly99]

I like the way you handle and mitigate it. I do have one other factor I put in which is a monetary cost. So with the Dragon Ascendent a class from the Draconomicon, the dragon can become a God but must eat their hoarde and it must be at least 100,000 gp. I do something similar, making the 100,000 gp cost go up at a 10 fold factor each additional Divine rank past 1 as a material component. I however make it so it must be something of that value or equivalent which can be highly subjective. It could be at the cost of the faith of a paladin, or the child of a father, the very forest a druid has sworn to protect, etc. Never a light decision. Something of such value as to create a total character overhaul.

I like It!

 

[Beefermatic]

Even I use that abilities. The reduction to DC is due to the fact tha Ascension in my setting is... well, not so "gratis" and without risks as the normal versione:

If the divinity is temporary, he take a penalty to all Rolls equal to the sum of the ascended creature HD + the gained DR as long the spell is in effect (like you take a penalty to give another creature a mythic rank with the spell Ascension – d20PFSRD)

If the divinity is permanent, he must consume an amount of quintessence (even from outside sources) appropriate for the final template obtained. This quintessence must be consumed even if you cast it with Alter Reality or as a supernatural ability (like dweomerkeeper). This is to give a pat on the teeth to the abusers of "I cast it many times in a row to increase my bonus from time to time because it doesn't cost anything anyway". You can cast the spell on yourself but must found extra sources for the quintessense.

Also, I increase the casting time to 8 hours from 1 minute but changed the duration from 20 to 24 hours (temporary) and from permanent to istantaneous (for the permanent versione).

I like all of those changes

 

[Veritasinpersonam]

Heh, I remember clocking that issue when Ascension first came out. Too easy to get it up there as written. At least as written, there is a hard cap on Duad, as the table does not extend. There's almsot no reason to get anything other than infinite intelligence for an entity as that lets them automatically turn themselves into a duad and toss about epic spells with nigh infinite attributes.