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It is not a sorcerer, it's a completely new class

Greg K

Legend
Um, what? A background is three trained skills plus a non-combat feat. Maybe you mean specialty?
Yes. I did. I talked about both backgrounds and specialties before.
This would make even less sense than replacing Cleric Domains with specialties.

Your origin determines your HP progression, weapon and armor proficiencies, physical attack bonus, and one (pseudo)spell per spell level - at the very least. That's way too much stuff to cram into a two-feat series, and it's way too sorcerer-specific anyway.

I only mentioned Weapon, Armor and +1 attack bonus.

And the draconic origin is actually incredibly well-knit anyway. The bonus spells and effects from spending Willpower are all carefully designed both to seem draconic and to make you a sweet gish. How would it make sense for a feyborn battle-sorcerer to have a breath weapon or spontaneously gain elemental resistance?
I never said a fey battle sorcerer would have breath weapon or elemental resistance. Those are abilities that would be tied to heritage given the current set up

Again, in the post you quoted, I am talking about moving only the Armor, Weapon and +1 weapon attack bonus out of the Draconic Heritage.

The sub-kits they've built into each class are pretty clever, IMO: they allow for more flexibility within each class than feats and skills would organically achieve, and then allow you to further customize on top of that. So as it stands] now, you can play a draconic sorcerer defender, or a draconic sorcerer magic-user, or whatever. You couldn't do that if the martial aspect of the draconic sorcerer was separated out into a specialty.

Right now, the Draconic Sorcerer is martial and you can't get around since armor, weapons and armor and the +1 weapon attack bonus are built into the heritage. Not everyone wants a draconic "gish" or any sorcerous gish. Others might. The game should support both and moving the armor, weapon and +1 weapon to a Specialty requiring a sorcerer heritage does this. The character could have his d8 hit die (maybe, dragon ancestry makes he character tougher). And would still keep sorcerous powers and spells (which, hopefully, will undergo some enlargement as the selection is pathetic, in my opinion)

And as a final note, what exactly makes a sorcerer "draconic" without the claws and scales and breath weapons? If he plays exactly like a typical wizard but with spontaneous casting, why wouldn't you just take the most vanilla d4-HP cloth-armor sorcerer origin and have your character talk a lot about the blood of dragons boiling in his veins?

The last thing is exactly what some people want, an innate caster with a dragon as an ancestor and that is it. Not everyone wants claws, scales and breath weapon- for many people it is simply over the top. (just as for many people like Umbran find the vanilla sorcerer boring). Or, maybe, they want a dragon heritage to grant resistance and minor abilities like dragon vision abilities. Personally, I prefer 3e heritage feats to the current set up or Pathfinder's bloodlines, but I'll wait to see what a vanilla sorcerer looks like.
 
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Lwaxy

Cute but dangerous
It maybe be close but if it's close enough, I don't know...

Would you like me to note how, oddly, White Wolf "vampires" are not consistent with Count Dracula, and "garou" are not consistent with loup garou, and Shadowrun "shamans" don't really resemble Asian spiritualists, and pretty much any sci-fi game refers to "starships" that aren't like the Enterprise... and somehow, we manage.

I know too little about vampire legends, I fear - asides that they don't sparkle :D - or about werewolves or the White Wolf games. So I have no idea if and how I'd adapt that. But we don't call the Shadowrun Shaman a Shaman for just those reasons. Depending on the game, it's bender or magician.

I don't know why the Enterprise would be an archetype for space ships. I'd vote for the Falcon.:cool:

For now, we call the sorcerer dragon disciple. Everyone knows that one and thinks it makes sense.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Do you think that the warlock pact, sorcerer heritage, wizard tradition, etc could all be the same class feature? For simplicity's sake.

Meaning a warlock in a pact with a devil, a sorcerer whose great great grandmother was a devil, and a wizard taught magic by a pit fiend all have the same fire magic boosting powers and imp summoning feature. They just trigger it in different ways. A warlock summons a imp by using a favor. A sorcerer does it by spending will power. And wizard does something else. The sorcerer gets devil features when low on willpower. The warlock has to spend favors to get the infernal features.

It could work much like an additional specialty. Another pillar of character customization open to see.
 


Grydan

First Post
Greatsword and full plate armor.

It is fine for *individual* dragon heritage sorcerers to go that route based on the character's background, making it better handled as a background and/or specialty chosen by a player (or even a separate Arcane Warrior class). It should not be hardwired into the Draconic heritage as it forces a specific concept of Dragon heritage sorcerer that may not fit an individual player's concept or a DM's setting.

For my tastes, as long as the additional armor and weapon training are built in to the Draconic heritage, it will not be fine. I am not saying not to have the option of a martial sorcerer. I like the concept and was a fan of the battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. However, martial training should be a background decision that some dragon heritage sorcerers, logically, may or may not pursue. Therefore, pull out the additional armor and weapon training and create a background that grants that training, create a new Arcane Warror class, or both. This leaves the player the choice and also allows other sorcerers to also pursue martial training or not as fits the individual character regardless of heritage.

With all respect Umbran, it is *boring* to you where as I find the Dragon Heritage with its default extra armor and weapon proficiency and sorcerous powers over the top and lame *crap* for many campaigns and interferes with player concept and DM campaign design.
...
Edit: I just want to be clear. With regards the additional armor and weapon training of the Draconic heritage, I am not against the concept of sorcerers trained with additional armor and weapons beyond the base sorcerer. I liked the 3e Unearthed Arcana Battle Sorcerer. My issue is that it is built into the assumption of a draconic heritage sorcerer. Rather than building the armor and weapon training into the Dragonic heritage, I would rather see a Background and/or Specialty Battle Sorcerer that can be taken by any sorcerer as appropriate to background and still leave any sorcerer heritage using the defaults as the base.

And for the Draconic Heritage Sorcerer, the game already has mechanics that can, specifically, cover a sorcererwith additional background training in armor and weapons- backgrounds and specialties. With a simple Battle Sorcerer background and/or specialty, a player can have his or her martial sorcerer regardless of heritage while leaving the default class heritages as non-martial caster.

b. It allows for Dragon Heritage sorcerers to be non martial as per 3e sorcerer rather than forcing it into a warrior niche.

I agree with this. I'd rather weapon and armor proficiency not be a part of any bloodline/origin. If I want to play a battle sorcerer, I should be able to do so with specialties/feats regardless of what my sorcerer's heritage is. Likewise, the same option should be available to wizards. Isn't that what specialties are for? By making this part of the draconic bloodline, they're basically forcing anyone who wants to play a "gish" into playing a sorcerer and picking the draconic bloodline. I don't like that at all.

* Melee weaons, and heavy armour? Here's where the line is crossed. Sorcerers just don't strike me as the gish class. Extra weapons sure, but not as many as they have. And while I'd buy leather, scale or plate is a bit much.

Right now, the Draconic Sorcerer is martial and you can't get around since armor, weapons and armor and the +1 weapon attack bonus are built into the heritage. Not everyone wants a draconic "gish" or any sorcerous gish. Others might. The game should support both and moving the armor, weapon and +1 weapon to a Specialty requiring a sorcerer heritage does this. The character could have his d8 hit die (maybe, dragon ancestry makes he character tougher). And would still keep sorcerous powers and spells (which, hopefully, will undergo some enlargement as the selection is pathetic, in my opinion).

Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but how does the presence of weapon and armour proficiencies and a +1 to attack with weapons in any way, shape, or form force anyone into doing anything?

If I want to build an archer fighter, I will be proficient in the use of rapiers, sickles, halberds and plate armour. I will have a better attack with daggers than a rogue who uses nothing else, ever. Nothing forces me to use any of those proficiencies, or ever benefit from those attack bonuses.

If I want to build a cleric, regardless of what god or domain I select, I will have the ability to turn undead. God of the sun? Turn Undead. God of War? Turn Undead. God of Commerce? Turn Undead. God of Undead? Turn Undead. There's no rule I can find that says I must use Turn Undead whenever we run into mobile non-living individuals, and if it doesn't fit my character, I probably won't.

Your dragon heritage sorcerer is free to wear cloth robes. Nobody is stopping him. He will have no better or worse AC than the wizard, or anyone else in robes, assuming equal Dex.

Your dragon heritage sorcerer is free to never make a melee attack. Nobody has a way to force you to roll.

Want to feel like an old-school wizard, just with a different spell system? Don't pick any offensive cantrips, wear cloth robes, and carry darts or a crossbow for when you run out of spell points.

---

The complaint is being couched as "I don't like this because it forces me to do something I don't want to".

Given that the system cannot force you to use all of the resources at your disposal, and inherently assumes that not everyone will use everything their character could, the complaint comes across more as "I don't like this because it allows other people to do something I don't want to".
 

I'd like to point out that draconic heritage might manifest in multiple ways even within the same game world.

So, while some people of draconic blood might go all gish, others might simply be magically potent. Take another sorcerous origin and refluff it. As others have said, there will almost certainly be a 'mage' type sorcerer origin - use it if you like, and say it comes from your dragon ancestors.
 

Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but how does the presence of weapon and armour proficiencies and a +1 to attack with weapons in any way, shape, or form force anyone into doing anything?

Your dragon heritage sorcerer is free to wear cloth robes. Nobody is stopping him. He will have no better or worse AC than the wizard, or anyone else in robes, assuming equal Dex.

Your dragon heritage sorcerer is free to never make a melee attack. Nobody has a way to force you to roll.

Want to feel like an old-school wizard, just with a different spell system? Don't pick any offensive cantrips, wear cloth robes, and carry darts or a crossbow for when you run out of spell points.

---

The complaint is being couched as "I don't like this because it forces me to do something I don't want to".

Given that the system cannot force you to use all of the resources at your disposal, and inherently assumes that not everyone will use everything their character could, the complaint comes across more as "I don't like this because it allows other people to do something I don't want to".
This is a very odd argument.
By that logic, they can and should give wizards the ability to wear plate and use greatswords as well, because you can choose to play a robed wizard in a staff if you want but you're not limited if you want a different type of wizard.

Sorcerers are the class for people who like wizards but hate the wizard spell system. So they should be simmilar in play to the wizard, a simmilar role.

They're trying to force the sorcerer into the gish archetype when it might not have been the best fit.
It's too much. Too much change and too many ideas too fast. Which might be the intent: toss out all the potential ideas and see which are received well and which are not.

I'll take sorcerers as the melee spellcaster, the replacement for the bladesinger/ duskbade/ magus/ swordmage if that's what they're focused at being. It's not ideal as it's a big departure from the old sorcerer.

Right now, why be a wizard when you can cast the same spells with twice the hitpoints, far higher AC, and a killer melee attack as a fallback?
 

Greg K

Legend
Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but how does the presence of weapon and armour proficiencies and a +1 to attack with weapons in any way, shape, or form force anyone into doing anything?
Yes, you are missing something .
The complaint is being couched as "I don't like this because it forces me to do something I don't want to".

Given that the system cannot force you to use all of the resources at your disposal, and inherently assumes that not everyone will use everything their character could, the complaint comes across more as "I don't like this because it allows other people to do something I don't want to".

And, with this, you are being dismissive and not interested discussion, I have never stated that I don't want a martial sorcerer. I have offered an alternative that keeps the base sorcerer of all heritages as non martial keeping with the 3e version in that respect, but also allowing for martial sorcerers of any heritage (much like the 3e battle sorcerer) using existing mechanics for customizing characters.
However, since you are dismissive and, apparently did not read the full posts, that is all I am going to write in reply. Have fun gaming!
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I don't think casting arcane spells in heavy armor at level 1 has ever been allowed in D&D; that's the sort of thing a character can't do until much later in it's career, and even then the character probably had to work toward that goal.

Point of fact: you could do it in AD&D as a multiclassed Elf or Half-Elf character (possibly others; I don't recall at the moment, though).
 
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Grydan

First Post
This is a very odd argument.
By that logic, they can and should give wizards the ability to wear plate and use greatswords as well, because you can choose to play a robed wizard in a staff if you want but you're not limited if you want a different type of wizard.

I'm a 4E player. 4E wizards, if they pay the price in stats and proficiency feats, are entirely capable of using plate (tricky, requiring stat investment and multiple feats) and greatswords (easy, one feat). Despite the option being there, few take it. The costs outweigh the benefits.

I'm not opposed at all to the idea of wizards in plate with greatswords. They'd still be lousy melee combatants (not to mention lousy spellcasters if you didn't also ditch Arcane Spell Failure).

(I should also note that despite the frequent use of them in examples, the playtest sorcerer is not proficient in the use of greatswords. Greatswords are heavy weapons, the draconic sorcerer only has access to martial weapons.)

Sorcerers are the class for people who like wizards but hate the wizard spell system. So they should be simmilar in play to the wizard, a simmilar role.
3E Sorcerers were, sure. 4E Sorcerers were not. There weren't any Sorcerers in earlier editions, to the best of my knowledge, so it's not like there's a long tradition of how sorcerers in D&D must be in order to be right.

Right now the playtest Sorcerer seems to combine elements of both versions, as well as adding a few new spices to the mix.

If they want sorcerers to be wizards with a different spell system, I don't think there's really enough there to justify having a separate class. All you'd need is a set of optional Spell Point rules for the Wizard.

As its own class, it has its own flavour, and needs the mechanics to be able to back up that different flavour. Not all of the flavours they come up with are going to appeal to everyone, nor should they.

They're trying to force the sorcerer into the gish archetype when it might not have been the best fit.
It's too much. Too much change and too many ideas too fast. Which might be the intent: toss out all the potential ideas and see which are received well and which are not.
I don't see it as forcing anything. I see it as offering an option. Not all Sorcerers will be draconic. Not all of them will have access to additional armours and weapons. Not all draconic sorcerers will invest in the resources to benefit from the melee boosts.

You need Str or Dex in order to make effective use of the weapon proficiencies and attack bonus. Probably Str, as finesse weapons offer no damage advantage over the basic weapons that everyone is proficient with, whereas the martial ones do.

The wizard, not pursuing melee, is free to put his stats somewhere else. Perhaps Con to offset the HP advantage. Perhaps Cha to make up some ground in social situations.

I also don't see it as too much change or too fast. The 3E and 4E Sorcerers were quite different from each other. If anything, the differences between this sorcerer and the 3E one are smaller than the differences between this and the 4E one, which didn't have to share a spell list (except amongst different flavours of sorcerer).

I'll take sorcerers as the melee spellcaster, the replacement for the bladesinger/ duskbade/ magus/ swordmage if that's what they're focused at being. It's not ideal as it's a big departure from the old sorcerer.
I don't think it's a replacement for the swordmage or bladesinger, at least not as I'm familiar with them from 4E. The bladesinger cast magic and fights in melee simultaneously, not alternating between the two. The swordmage's magic is melee magic, not borrowed wizard spells that are mostly intended for use at range. It's a spellcaster who gives up a good deal of magical power and options in exchange for being a pretty decent melee combatant (or a melee combatant who gives up a good deal of melee power and options in exchange for being a pretty decent spellcaster).

All else being equal (same stat array, for instance), the draconic sorcerer is a less competent spell-caster than the wizard, and a less competent melee combatant than the fighter. Trying to be particularly good in either category will weaken their effectiveness in the other, and can never actually catch them up. Trying to support two separate attack stats means forsaking all secondary stats.

Right now, why be a wizard when you can cast the same spells with twice the hitpoints, far higher AC, and a killer melee attack as a fallback?
Why be the wizard?

All issues of different class flavour aside, here's a few mechanical incentives to choose the wizard instead of the sorcerer:

Higher Magic Attack - The draconic Sorcerer's extra +1 to weapon attacks puts them exactly 1 ahead of the Wizard in weapon attacks. In return, for magical attacks, the wizard starts out 1 ahead, and moves up to 2 ahead at level 4.

Higher Spell DC - Again, the Wizard starts out 1 point ahead, and moves up to 2 ahead at level 4.

Earlier access to higher tier spells - The Sorcerer gains tier 2 spells at level 4. The Wizard gains access to them at level 3, as well as getting tier 3 spells at level 5.

Access to a broader list of spells - The Sorcerer spell-list is a sub-set of the Wizard list. Any spell the Sorcerer can cast, the Wizard can as well. The reverse is not true.

More spells - The Sorcerer knows 6 spells at level 5. The Wizard knows 9. The Sorcerer gets 2 cantrips to start, the Wizard gets 3. The Sorcerer starts with 2 spells, the Wizard starts with 5.

Extra skill - The Wizard gains a free knowledge skill, which benefits from Intelligence being their main stat. The Sorcerer gains no skills outside of those provided by their background.

Yes, you are missing something .


And, with this, you are being dismissive and not interested discussion, I have never stated that I don't want a martial sorcerer. I have offered an alternative that keeps the base sorcerer of all heritages as non martial keeping with the 3e version in that respect, but also allowing for martial sorcerers of any heritage (much like the 3e battle sorcerer) using existing mechanics for customizing characters.
However, since you are dismissive and, apparently did not read the full posts, that is all I am going to write in reply. Have fun gaming!

My apologies, it was not my intent to be dismissive, and I am interested in discussion.

I think your proffered alternative has a few rather major flaws.

1) Backgrounds and Specialties are, so far anyways, designed to be optional. In any campaign where they are not in use, your approach removes the option of the armoured sorcerer altogether.

2) Backgrounds do not give weapon or armour proficiencies, nor do they give attack bonuses. Specialties, through feats, could. However, as feats are largely cross-class, putting an attack bonus into a feat sets a bad precedent in a flattened math system. The attack bonus either has to reside in the heritage choice or it has to go away. It really doesn't have anywhere else to go.

3) Removing additional proficiencies and attack bonuses from the list of viable ways to differentiate heritages lessens the design space available.

4) Requiring the specialization resource to be committed to achieving the armoured sorcerer shuts armoured sorcerers off from all other specializations.

5) The Cleric already has set the precedent that an internal-to-class customization option (Domain) is a perfectly viable way to grant additional weapon and armour proficiencies.
 

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