Item Creation Caster Levels (Is this true??)

[Ashrem Bayle]

I read this in the Temple of Elemental Evil (PC Game) forum today:

Once again, Flaming weapons do not have a caster level requirement of 10, Frost and Shock weapons do not have a caster level requirement of 8, etc. By the rules, you can create any item as soon as you have the appropriate feat and the prerequisite spells. As stated by both the Sage (Skip Williams) and by Monte Cook, the caster levels in the DMG are misleading - they are "average found levels," not prerequisites.

Is this true? I don't recall ever hearing anything about this.

 

[kreynolds]

Is this true?

Yes. Caster level is not a prerequisite. However, if you want a wand of fireballs that launches 10d6 fireballs, then naturally, you'll need to be 10th-level to create such a wand. But that's as close as caster level gets to being a prerequisite.

dcollins should be around any minute also.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Hmm Well.. Learn something new every day.

Thanks!

 

[dcollins]

Here I am, and probably not alone, either.

The rules are explicit, as Ashrem read them in the first place, that Caster Level is a requirement. Several designers have said it shouldn't be but it's never been errata'd. Furthermore things like item pricing are unanswerable if Caster Levels are variable.

Here's what Monte Cook most recently said about the current rules: "Caster level is still a prerequisite for magic item creation. This was an error in the 3.0 DMG and remains. You still have to be 17th level to make a 1st-level pearl of power." www.montecook.com/review.html

Here's my page detailing the whole ugly history of the issue: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html

We argue about this all the time on these boards. Here's last week's version: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67222

 

[KarinsDad]

We argue about this all the time on these boards. Here's last week's version: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67222

I do not know what there is to argue about.

The rule is quite explicit.

The designers opinions are just that: opinions.

Once their opinion makes it into an errata or a FAQ, then it becomes a rule. Until then, we have a rule.

 

[Silverglass]

Yes the caster level of the magic item is a prerequisite as written in the 3.0 DMG and the 3.5 SRD.

SRD
"For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)."

Some of the game designers say that it should not have been and that this is an error, however until the core rule is errata'd it is the rule. Generally the more "powerful" an item is the higher its caster level even if the prerequisite is a 2nd level spell and Craft Wondrous Item, so this rule makes some sense in that the greater the magic the higher the level of the creator. Unfortunately there are glaring exceptions to this, which are usually those items that have multiple versions, the Pearl of Power being an excellent example.

If you want to make changes I'd suggest house ruling those exceptional items rather than removing the requirement completely. So you can house rule that the CL of a Pearl of Power is equal (spell level * 2) -1 and the double spell one is 17th for example.

 

[Thaniel]

Here I am, and probably not alone, either.

The rules are explicit, as Ashrem read them in the first place, that Caster Level is a requirement. Several designers have said it shouldn't be but it's never been errata'd. Furthermore things like item pricing are unanswerable if Caster Levels are variable.

Here's what Monte Cook most recently said about the current rules: "Caster level is still a prerequisite for magic item creation. This was an error in the 3.0 DMG and remains. You still have to be 17th level to make a 1st-level pearl of power." www.montecook.com/review.html

Here's my page detailing the whole ugly history of the issue: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html

We argue about this all the time on these boards. Here's last week's version: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67222

If it's a requirement as you say, why isn't it listed under "Prerequisites". It's not, therefore it ain't.

 

[Artoomis]

If it's a requirement as you say, why isn't it listed under "Prerequisites". It's not, therefore it ain't.

It does not need to be listed that way. It is quite clear as it is - the "prerequisites" are everything except caster level, which is still a requirement. The "not in prerequisites" argument is a rather strained reading. We've gone over this many times. Once more, with feeling, here are the rules, with some emphasis added:

Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
• Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

Note that the prerequisites are conceptually different from the required caster level for creation. The caster level for the item is still a requirement; this has never been changed.

 

[Caliban]

It does not need to be listed that way. It is quite clear as it is - the "prerequisites" are everything except caster level, which is still a requirement. The "not in prerequisites" argument is a rather strained reading. We've gone over this many times. Once more, with feeling, here are the rules, with some emphasis added:

I really don't think it's that clear. And I don't think the opposing arguement is "rather strained".

In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

To me, in this context the "item's caster level" could be the caster level required to cast any spell effects the item generates, or to cast any spells required to create the item. Prerequisites could put a higher minimum on the creator's level, such as with a ring of feather falling have a caster level of 1, but you still have to be 12th level to take the Forge Ring feat.

Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

Which seems to support that the caster level is seperate from the prerequisites, and not necessarily required to create the item. Especially when the prerequisites for some items specifically list a caster level different than the item's caster level (such as the amulet of mighty fists). This is a contradiction.

Either the wording is unclear about the relationship between the caster level and the prerequisites, and the intent is what the designers say, or you believe wording is clear and that the book flatly contradicts itself when it comes to the caster levels.

I think it would be simpler and more balanced overall if the caster level was a prerequisite, and the caster levels for some of the items were adjusted in an intelligent fashion. That's how I handle it in my home game.

 

[Spatula]

It does not need to be listed that way. It is quite clear as it is - the "prerequisites" are everything except caster level, which is still a requirement. The "not in prerequisites" argument is a rather strained reading.

And how do you explain the items that do have a caster level listed as an actual prerequisite, especially when the Prerequisite level does not match the Caster Level level.