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Item Creation Caster Levels (Is this true??)
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1213744" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>Before I get into the specifics of your examples, I just want to point out one thing:</p><p></p><p>When a general rule is X, it does not mean that there cannot be exceptions. For example, there are general rules on spell targeting, saves, etc. and every once in a while, a spell will be an exception to that rule.</p><p></p><p>There is no doubt that the designers have mentioned a few times that this was not their intent. This, by direct implication, means that they are not only aware of how it reads, but that the most reasonable interpretation of how it reads is that item caster level is a requirement, just like a quiet place to work is a requirement, but not in the prerequisite section.</p><p></p><p>And in 3 YEARS since the 3E books first came out, they have not corrected that. That's a lot of time to sit on the sidelines over an issue that comes up once a month or so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Item Caster Level is different than Creator Level. They are two different things. Hence, since there are no spell associated with Ioun Stones, it may be as simple as the designers wanted to be totally clear that you have to be 12th level or higher to create ioun stones, but that ioun stones save versus dispel magic as 12th level items as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on creator's level"</p><p></p><p>Note the difference between caster level and creator level which I think some people get confused on. Item Caster Level merely indicates how potent the item is, regardless of who crafted it. Creator Level indicates what level someone must be to craft the item.</p><p></p><p>If the spell caster has to be a higher level to cast a given spell than other spell casters, then in order to cast that spell, the prerequisite for him is to be higher level. The creator level must be higher. The caster level does not NEED to be the minimum for what is needed for him to cast the spell. It does not state that in the rules (only for potions, scrolls, and wands).</p><p></p><p>In your interpretation, your question here is a quandry because you are associating Item Caster Level with the minimum spell caster level required to cast the spell as if this were a scroll or potion. Item Caster Level and Minimum Spell Caster Level for the spell are two totally different things. That is where you are getting confused.</p><p></p><p>If instead you take the literal definition of Item Caster Level, this quandry goes away.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because the item sets the caster level, not the spell.</p><p></p><p>With your interpretation, this could NEVER happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes it does. The ITEM CASTER LEVEL is 2nd. Why? Because the item says so. The Creator Level is 6th. No problem, no issue.</p><p></p><p>Granted, potions do not follow this rule normally, but here is a case where one does. And, this potion does not have a spell associated with it, so the designers explicitly put in that a spell caster must be 6th level to create it. It they had not done that, then a third level caster could have crafted the potion (i.e. the minimum level to get Brew Potion).</p><p></p><p>If you cast Dispel Magic at someone who has drunk a Potion of Vision, the magic of the potion saves at CL 2, not CL 6.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now that I have answered your questions, I would like you or someone with your POV to answer mine.</p><p></p><p>I cannot comprehend how you can interpret the rules in your manner. It is not that I disagree with your interpretation, I just cannot understand how you can interpret the written text in that way. When the text says "the sky is blue", how do you come up with "the sky is red"?</p><p></p><p>Please explain how you interpret it the way you do. I must just be dense, but I cannot understand your position based on the written rules at all. If someone could clearly explain it step by step, rule by rule, I would appreciate it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 1213744, member: 2011"] Before I get into the specifics of your examples, I just want to point out one thing: When a general rule is X, it does not mean that there cannot be exceptions. For example, there are general rules on spell targeting, saves, etc. and every once in a while, a spell will be an exception to that rule. There is no doubt that the designers have mentioned a few times that this was not their intent. This, by direct implication, means that they are not only aware of how it reads, but that the most reasonable interpretation of how it reads is that item caster level is a requirement, just like a quiet place to work is a requirement, but not in the prerequisite section. And in 3 YEARS since the 3E books first came out, they have not corrected that. That's a lot of time to sit on the sidelines over an issue that comes up once a month or so. Item Caster Level is different than Creator Level. They are two different things. Hence, since there are no spell associated with Ioun Stones, it may be as simple as the designers wanted to be totally clear that you have to be 12th level or higher to create ioun stones, but that ioun stones save versus dispel magic as 12th level items as well. "and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on creator's level" Note the difference between caster level and creator level which I think some people get confused on. Item Caster Level merely indicates how potent the item is, regardless of who crafted it. Creator Level indicates what level someone must be to craft the item. If the spell caster has to be a higher level to cast a given spell than other spell casters, then in order to cast that spell, the prerequisite for him is to be higher level. The creator level must be higher. The caster level does not NEED to be the minimum for what is needed for him to cast the spell. It does not state that in the rules (only for potions, scrolls, and wands). In your interpretation, your question here is a quandry because you are associating Item Caster Level with the minimum spell caster level required to cast the spell as if this were a scroll or potion. Item Caster Level and Minimum Spell Caster Level for the spell are two totally different things. That is where you are getting confused. If instead you take the literal definition of Item Caster Level, this quandry goes away. Because the item sets the caster level, not the spell. With your interpretation, this could NEVER happen. Yes it does. The ITEM CASTER LEVEL is 2nd. Why? Because the item says so. The Creator Level is 6th. No problem, no issue. Granted, potions do not follow this rule normally, but here is a case where one does. And, this potion does not have a spell associated with it, so the designers explicitly put in that a spell caster must be 6th level to create it. It they had not done that, then a third level caster could have crafted the potion (i.e. the minimum level to get Brew Potion). If you cast Dispel Magic at someone who has drunk a Potion of Vision, the magic of the potion saves at CL 2, not CL 6. Now that I have answered your questions, I would like you or someone with your POV to answer mine. I cannot comprehend how you can interpret the rules in your manner. It is not that I disagree with your interpretation, I just cannot understand how you can interpret the written text in that way. When the text says "the sky is blue", how do you come up with "the sky is red"? Please explain how you interpret it the way you do. I must just be dense, but I cannot understand your position based on the written rules at all. If someone could clearly explain it step by step, rule by rule, I would appreciate it. [/QUOTE]
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