Item Creation Rituals - several points

[Rafe]

It's not the cost of the enchant I want to change - just the convenience. [snip] Even if they found cash and ran to town to buy reagents, I want them to at least have to purchase or commission a special cloak to enchant, with the cost of that being included in the ritual materials cost.

The convenience still exists and it seems to me like it is the cost you want to change. What you're looking to change is the cost to them or just delay them with a few more steps that would take a few seconds to resolve. "No, you can't enchant that cloak. You can only enchant a special cloak." "Okay, I buy a special cloak." "Oh... okay, now you can enchant it."

?

As others have said, if you don't like the current rules, alter them to introduce a plot hook or side adventure.

Say that every enchantment requires a talisman trigger. The talisman must in some ways represent the power to be imbued: Hair from a dwarf's beard for Dwarven Greaves, the remains of the vestments of some church's legendary hero for a Holy Avenger, hydra hide for Hydra Armor, etc.

 

[Alex319]

I still don't get how d2 vorpal equals infinite damage.... Please explain.

Basically, there's a special power (I forget what it is) that makes it so every time you get a 1 on your damage roll, you can reroll it. Vorpal of course means that if you get a maximum damage roll, you reroll it and add the original value, and you can keep going.

Now with a d2, you will always get a reroll whether you roll a 1 or a 2, so you can reroll indefinitely while accumulating damage.

 

[Smeelbo]

Awarding residium equivalent "base" items as treasure

I will begin DMing on a regular basis soon, and here is how I feel. First of all, the market prices for selling magic items is absurd. I know that if 4E were an MMO with a bazaar, the mage hand of the invisible market would price used magic weapons and armor at substantially above 20% of its original price. Second, functionally, magic items the party can use are worth their full value to the party, while unusable magic items are worth their value in residium, i.e., 20%. That strikes me as awkward. I'd like my players to have magic items they'll enjoy, but the current method feels too artificial to me.

Believe me, I get the problem that 4E is trying to avoid with residium, and if there were a real market for magic items beyond their residium, that would mess things up.

So here is my response. I will be giving some treasure out in the form of items whose value is two-fold. They will have a residium value, and additionally can serve as a base for a specific item.

For example, suppose they kill a displacer beast. The treasure might include the displacer beasts hide, which is worth say 1,000 GP worth of residium, and can serve as a basis for a Displacer Cloak, Cloak of Distortion, or similar item. When the characters have accumulated enough gold and/or residium, we would negotiate what item could be made from the base item, I would determine its cost, and they would make up the difference with other items, residium, and gold. If they try to sell these base items, they'd only fetch 20% of their value, as per PHB.

This accomplishes a few things. First, I can reward them with progress towards a desired magic item without simply handing out cash. Second, I can have monster parts function as treasure, without breaking the game. The parts are simply part of the treasure parcel. Third, it adds a bit of roleplaying aspect to the magic item creation process. And finally, I can give NPCs magic items that are not immediately useful to the PCs, but act as treasure without simply handing them the item the NPC was using.

For example, they defeat a Goblin Hexer, who has a Hex Rod. I might declare that the rod is worth 250 GP of residium, can serve as the base for a similar rod, but cannot be used as is by the player characters. If they decide later not to make a rod, they can use the residium value of the rod to make another magic item they have a base item for.

In order to make this manageable for the players, I will handle all the book keeping on their behalf.

This strikes me as reasonable balance between the intent of 4E, the desire of the players for specific magic items, and story telling.

Smeelbo

EDIT: Yes, I know it's residuum, but I have a much easier time pronouncing it residium.

 

[Grabuto138]

For example, suppose they kill a displacer beast. The treasure might include the displacer beasts hide, which is worth say 1,000 GP worth of residium, and can serve as a basis for a Displacer Cloak, Cloak of Distortion, or similar item. When the characters have accumulated enough gold and/or residium, we would negotiate what item could be made from the base item, I would determine its cost, and they would make up the difference with other items, residium, and gold.

Reminds me of trying to navigate the item creation "rules" as they were in 1st and 2nd edition. In my experience it will devolve into wasted time butchering everything, with clever characters trying to think of uses for every bit of the monster they could think of. It is much less fun and much less heroic than it sounds.

Like with the powers, the rules create the balanced gameplay and the narrative and roleplaying justifies the effect in a fun and plausible way. If you don't like the idea of enchanting a rusty sword, then have the magic suddenly transform a mundane sword into something dramatic. The sale price is realistic if the dungeon master can think of way to make it realistic. In general I think it is much easier to adjust the narrative than the rules, mutually suspend disbelief when necessary and jusdicially use "no."

 

[Smeelbo]

It won't devolve to that, because I will simply list it as treasure. The players won't search, or won't search fruitfully, because I will simply declare that such and such is worth so much residuum towards making a magic item. There's no appraise skill, so my impression is that players simply know what treasures are worth.

And as for the bookkeeping, I'll handle that.

Smeelbo

 

[Rafe]

Say that every enchantment requires a talisman trigger. The talisman must in some ways represent the power to be imbued: Hair from a dwarf's beard for Dwarven Greaves, the remains of the vestments of some church's legendary hero for a Holy Avenger, hydra hide for Hydra Armor, etc.

Is that not the same as:

For example, suppose they kill a displacer beast. The treasure might include the displacer beasts hide, which is worth say 1,000 GP worth of residium, and can serve as a basis for a Displacer Cloak, Cloak of Distortion, or similar item. When the characters have accumulated enough gold and/or residium, we would negotiate what item could be made from the base item, I would determine its cost, and they would make up the difference with other items, residium, and gold.

Just curious.

I like the idea of attaching a gp value to said residuum/talisman trigger item. Obviously it's quite necessary for the enchanting process in D&D and it's good to have that stated up front.

 

[Rel]

Cool thread. I'll make a few observations about the RAW and also a couple house rules:

One thing I think is absolutely KEY to remember is that you don't spend gold to enchant items. You spend ritual components. Now granted, one way to get those ritual components is to buy them. But that doesn't mean that they must be available in unlimited quantities in every little hamlet or thorp the PC's pass through.

As a result of this the GM has absolute control over how many magic items the players can make. No ritual components, no items. Although I'll grant that there would be nothing stopping the PC's from disenchanting items they already have (except lack of access to the disenchant ritual) and turning the residuum into magic items. But at a 20% exchange rate that's pretty steep.

Now I don't say this as a way for GMs to be iron fisted dictators, only letting the smallest drabs of magic slip through their grip. I bring it up because it dispels the notion that the game MUST allow near limitless magic item creation. Personally I intend to use this as a way to guide the game a bit and keep things interesting.

Notably I give out ritual ingredients as treasure on a pretty regular basis. I break this down by type so that Alchemical Reagents are distinct from Sanctified Incense, etc. But I further distinguish ingredients that are particularly useful for certain rituals. For example I might have them find some magical birdseed that is worth 50gp of Rare Herbs but also counts double toward the casting of Animal Messenger. Or give them some Siren Tongues that are worth 100gp of Alchemical Reagents but are worth double that for casting Magic Mouth. Yes this increases bookeeping somewhat but I also think it adds interest to the game. Furthermore it's a bonus so the player can ignore it if they want. If they want to throw the Siren Tongues in the pile of Alchemical Reagents and never even note the Magic Mouth benefit then they are welcome to do so.

One thing I'll note from WAY upthread about the magical resizing of armor is that I'd probably require that the person it's being sized to take part in the ritual as allowed on p299 of the PHB. I still wouldn't let it result in huge suits of armor being broken down for materials, even if you get a Hill Giant to help you out with the ritual. But I think it's flavorful to require that the wearer participate.

Now into House Rules territory:

I was mildly bothered by the "one size fits all" nature of the Enchant Magic Item ritual. I considered a few ways to tweak this without adding a whole lot of work for me or the players. What I finally arrived at was this:

You can make any item normally allowed with the Enchant Magic Item ritual but it costs 150% of the listed cost. BUT you can also find rituals to make specific types of magic items and using these rituals you can create the item for 75% of listed cost.

This means that the PC's are more likely to craft some items than others and gives me a way to allow the Warlock to get his Rod of Corruption without me having to put one in the lair of the Evil Dwarves who I don't think would have a Rod of Corruption. I can toss him the Enchant Rod of Corruption Ritual in an earlier game and make sure that he gets the necessary components from the Dwarven Artificers during the course of that adventure. Again, this takes more planning but it helps me bring the world alive and I view that as part of my job as the GM.

This also can make the rituals themselves be part of the adventure. Maybe the Dwarf PC in the party is specifically going after this clan of Evil Dwarves because rumor has it that they still have the lost art of crafting Dwarven Armor. Finding that ritual and bringing it back to the smiths of his clan might be the whole reason he became an adventurer in the first place. And of course this also lets you set up a Skill Challenge where the PC's try to research the ritual to craft a Dragonslayer Sword to slay the Red Dragon plaguing the town if they don't have the money to make one at 150% cost.

Finally I didn't realize they'd included it in AV (I don't own that book) but I allow the spontaneous enchantment of items during the course of the adventure. Sometimes I plan this and sometimes it just seems right. But if the PC's didn't manage to make a Dragonslayer Sword to kill the Red Dragon but they managed anyway, perhaps the Fighter will find after the battle that the heartblood of the dragon has stained his sword permanently and NOW it's a Dragonslayer.

 

[Rafe]

You can make any item normally allowed with the Enchant Magic Item ritual but it costs 150% of the listed cost. BUT you can also find rituals to make specific types of magic items and using these rituals you can create the item for 75% of listed cost.

I think that's a great house rule. In this instance, do you mean you could find a specific scroll for cloaks in general, or is it even more specific; a scroll to make X magic cloak?

 

[Krensus]

For example, suppose they kill a displacer beast. The treasure might include the displacer beasts hide, which is worth say 1,000 GP worth of residium, and can serve as a basis for a Displacer Cloak, Cloak of Distortion, or similar item. When the characters have accumulated enough gold and/or residium, we would negotiate what item could be made from the base item, I would determine its cost, and they would make up the difference with other items, residium, and gold. If they try to sell these base items, they'd only fetch 20% of their value, as per PHB.

This reminds me a lot of when I played 2nd ed and always had to ask if any of the skin from the giants we had just slain was suitable to be made into a Girdle of Giant Strength. The way I've done it in my game is that I convert parcel gold in encounter with weird or magical creatures that wouldn't care about money into ritual components. It's not as specific as yours, as I'd rather not deal witht he hassle of bookkeeping on my end or the player's.

At first, I was very reactionary about this ritual as well, as I had banned Item Creation Feats from my 3-3.5 games because I wanted to control the tempo of what items were allowed. Now that player's give me a wish list of what items they want for each level, I see item crafting as a way for the 1-2 players who didn't get a magic item this level to get something they want at the cost of gold. Because the parcels can give Party Level +2 items, those characters are being penalized for not getting an item as loot (they can only craft an item up to their level), but they can still get a utility item or an item not important enough to throw on their list.

What this means is a character can plan their advancement and feat selection around expecting upgrades they can actually use. In all honesty, did anyone really like slaying a dragon in an epic battle, then rummaging through his vast hoard to find...3 potions of healing, 3 cleric scrolls, a weapon no one's specialized in, and a cursed backbiter? Now, from a simulationist's point, yes, this can happen, what are the chances of there being something that 6 random people could use in that pile? But I always felt let down when we killed the BBEG and his loot is just worthless to everyone in the pary. Cue the 2 hour "bargaining in town" RP, we gotta get something out of this!


What I love about 4th edition is that items merely enhance the player's abilities instead of being the main source of their power. Instead of Excalibur outshining the skills King Arthur, it enables the potential he already has within him. My friend despises this as he's always been something of a loot whore, but I think it's an important point that magic items aren't nearly as powerful or worrisome as they formerly were, though I'm sure that will change as new books are published.

All that being said, I've accepted the ritual as just part of the game and a gold sink for players between adventures. I just see it as a way for a ranged/caster character to get enchanted armor without having to sacrifice that spot on their wish list where a magic implement would go.

 

[77IM]

For example I might have them find some magical birdseed that is worth 50gp of Rare Herbs but also counts double toward the casting of Animal Messenger. Or give them some Siren Tongues that are worth 100gp of Alchemical Reagents but are worth double that for casting Magic Mouth.

I do a similar thing. Mine works slightly differently, to make the special components more general:

Special components can be used for any sort of ritual (like residuum, and unlike alchemical reagents and healing salves and whatnot, which are tied to a particular skill).
Special components count double when used in a ritual related to their theme. For example, 100 gp worth of Elemental Fire would count as 200 gp when used in any fire-related ritual (such as enchanting a flaming weapon). This is broad and vague and up to the DM, but I would rather not restrict my players to specific rituals.
Special components count half when used in non-thematically-related-rituals. This way, there is still a market for residuum etc.

So far it has worked reasonably well. When the group kills a dragon and wants to carve it up for parts, I can just tell them "you get 500 gp of Dragon Parts" and they can use that in dragon-related rituals.

-- 77IM