Iterative attacks and Precision damage

[GreyVulpine]

I know that sneak attacks count as precision damage.

For sneak attacks, a rogue can deal sneak attacks for all their attack rolls, as long as their enemy's denied dex bonus to AC, or flanked.

If they're invisible, only their first attack in the series counts for sneak attack damage. If greater invisibility is used, sneak attacks can be used for all attacks while the spell is in effect.

As with all precision damage, sneak attacks are never multiplied in critical hits.

All those, I'm comfortable with, it's clearly laid out in the rules.


For Manyshot, it clearly states in the feat description that one attack roll is used, and all precision damage (including crit hit) is only applied to the first arrow in the volley.

In the D20srd entry for the epic feat "Improved Manyshot" we can see that it states:

Special

Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you only apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage or the ranger’s favored enemy bonus) once. If you score a critical hit, only one of the arrows deals critical damage (your choice); all others deal normal damage.

From that we can see that even the ranger's favored enemy bonus is considered precision damage, and is only applied once.

In the official D&D 3.5 FAQ, the sage states:

If the ranger uses the Manyshot feat against a favored
enemy, does the favored enemy damage bonus apply to all
arrows fired in the attack?
Yes.

Which is correct?


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Point Blank Shot looks to be precision damage. It seems if it were to be applied to Manyshot, only the first arrow has the +1 damage bonus.

What if we were to bring in iterative attacks?

Say we have a lev 6 ranger (BAB of +6/+1), with 18 dex, 14 str. He's carrying a +2 enhancement mighty (+3 str) composite bow of frost. He's using point blank shot to shoot at an enemy. What would his attack and damage rolls be?

Would it be +12/+8 (adding PBS to both rolls?) or +12/+7 (adding PBS to first roll only). Would his damage modifiers be 1d8 + 1d6 + 7 for both rolls, or +7 for the first roll, and +6 for the second?

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Say the ranger above got improved rapid shot (like rapid shot but without the -2 penalty to all attacks). For simplicity sake, he's the same level.

His attack rolls would be +12/+12/+7.

Throw in a wizard's haste, as well as PBS. Which would apply first? Would you put in PBS then haste to get +13/+13/+12/+7? or haste then PBS (if we were to guess that PBS only applied to one attack) to get +13/+12/+12/+7?

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Pertaining to the two above examples, in Complete Arcane (page 86), under the heading "Multiple Hits", it seems to support that Point Blank Shot counts as precision damage, and is only applied to the first damage in an iterative attack.

The example they used was a lev 7 sorcerer/lev 3 rogue, casting scorching ray (2 rays). If the first ray hit, it would do 6d6 damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for PBS), and just 4d6 for subsequent rays. Are there any other places in the core books where this is backed up, and the rule is clearly stated?

Thanks,
-GV

 

[irdeggman]

I know that sneak attacks count as precision damage.

For sneak attacks, a rogue can deal sneak attacks for all their attack rolls, as long as their enemy's denied dex bonus to AC, or flanked.

If they're invisible, only their first attack in the series counts for sneak attack damage. If greater invisibility is used, sneak attacks can be used for all attacks while the spell is in effect.

As with all precision damage, sneak attacks are never multiplied in critical hits.

All those, I'm comfortable with, it's clearly laid out in the rules.


For Manyshot, it clearly states in the feat description that one attack roll is used, and all precision damage (including crit hit) is only applied to the first arrow in the volley.

In the D20srd entry for the epic feat "Improved Manyshot" we can see that it states:



From that we can see that even the ranger's favored enemy bonus is considered precision damage, and is only applied once.

This is incorrect.

Because a ranger's favored enemy damage can be applied to undead (a change in 3.5 from 3.0).

Rules Compendium pg 42 under Precision Damage

"Precision damage applies only against living creatures that have discernible anatomies. Undead, constructs, deathless, oozes, plants and incorporeals are not subject to precision damage."

Rules Compendium takes precedence for all rules issues.

 

[Runestar]

From that we can see that even the ranger's favored enemy bonus is considered precision damage, and is only applied once.

I think that quote from improved manyshot is a holdover from 3e, when a ranger's FE damage bonus was indeed considered precision damage. This should have been removed in 3.5, so you would be able to add the extra damage to each arrow fired while using manyshot.

The 3.5 ranger entry does not make any mention of this either.

Say we have a lev 6 ranger (BAB of +6/+1), with 18 dex, 14 str. He's carrying a +2 enhancement mighty (+3 str) composite bow of frost. He's using point blank shot to shoot at an enemy. What would his attack and damage rolls be?

As a general rule of thumb in 3.5, if you are making a full-attack, precision based damage applies to every attack you made. So the bonuses from point blank shot applies to each of your attacks (assuming they are all made on a foe within 30ft).

However, if you are making multiple attacks as part of any action other than a full-round action (typically a standard action), then precision-based damage applies only to the first attack. So if you attack with manyshot or scorching ray, PBS applies only once, regardless of how many attacks you make.

This is clarified in the rules compendium.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Who takes Improved Many?
Take Greater Manyshot: none of it counts as precision damage. Yes, every single one can be used for sneak attack.
It is in the SRD as well. A 3.5 feat.

Greater Manyshot [General]

You are skilled at firing many arrows at once, even at different opponents.
Prerequisites

Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit

When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.
Special

A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Shin Okada]

Who takes Improved Many?

Someone with 21+ BAB, naturally.

From SRD (Emphasis added),

IMPROVED MANYSHOT [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, base attack bonus +21, Many-shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Benefits: As Manyshot, but the number of arrows the character can fire is limited only by his or her base attack bonus (two arrows, plus one arrow for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +6).
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows the character fires, he or she only applies precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage or the ranger’s favored enemy bonus) once. If the character scores a critical hit, only one of the arrows deals critical damage (character’s choice); all others deal normal damage.
Normal: With the Manyshot feat, the character is limited to a maximum of four arrows fired (when the character’s base attack bonus is +16 or higher).

The only reason to take this feat over (or in addition to) Greater Manyshot is to fire 5+ arrows as a standard action.

 

[GreyVulpine]

As a general rule of thumb in 3.5, if you are making a full-attack, precision based damage applies to every attack you made. So the bonuses from point blank shot applies to each of your attacks (assuming they are all made on a foe within 30ft).

However, if you are making multiple attacks as part of any action other than a full-round action (typically a standard action), then precision-based damage applies only to the first attack. So if you attack with manyshot or scorching ray, PBS applies only once, regardless of how many attacks you make.

This is clarified in the rules compendium.

Ah, thank you, I must have missed that entry in the RC.

So if the Ranger's favored enemy bonuses aren't counted as precision damage anymore, does that mean that it gets multiplied during a crit?

-GV

 

[Starbuck_II]

Ah, thank you, I must have missed that entry in the RC.

So if the Ranger's favored enemy bonuses aren't counted as precision damage anymore, does that mean that it gets multiplied during a crit?

-GV

Correct. This is due to the fact that isn't damage dice. Ranger adds a damage bonus: those are always multiplied.

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

actually the 'immune to precision damage' thing is a bit more ambiguous than just that lovely line in the rules compendium. There are other types and subtypes that claim immunity than what is mentioned in the RC. The RC never claimed to have ALL the rules, hence the lingering problem.

See my very first thread on 339 for how I made sense of it.