Iterative sneak attacks?

[Zaruthustran]

How do iterative sneak attacks work, when the sneak attack is due to the fact that the rogue is Hiding?

All examples use a rogue with a +6/+1 BAB armed either with a longsword or a bow. Combat with the rogue's party has been running for several rounds and no targets are flat-footed.

Example1:
Rogue is hiding. Enemy moves to within melee reach of rogue, but does not spot rogue. On Rogue's turn, rogue does a full attack.
Is the target denied his Dex for each of the rogue's 2 attacks? Or does the target automatically spot the rogue after the first attack? Does the rogue get to try to continue Hiding, but at a -20 penalty? If so, is this roll made after the first or second attack?

Example2:
Rogue is hiding. Enemy moves 30' away from rogue but does not spot rogue. On rogue's turn, rogue does a full attack with bow.
Is the target denied his Dex for each of the rogue's 2 attacks? Or does the target automaticallyt spot the rogue after the first attack? Does the rogue get to try to continue Hiding, but at a -20 penalty? If so, is this roll made after the first or second attack?

Example3: same as either example 1 or 2, but rogue has had the 2nd level spell Invisibility cast on him. After 1st iterative attack rogue loses the invisibility spell. Does that mean that his second iterative attack is not a sneak attack? If so, how does this ruling impact examples 1 and 2?

I'm guessing that the answers to all the examples is: you get 1 sneak attack and then the target spots you. The other, iterative attack is not a sneak attack.

But I'm curious to hear other opinions.

-z, curious

 

[Cedric]

When a rogue is able to do a sneak attack, he gets sneak attack damage for each attack that he can make in that turn. If he gets 4 attacks for some reason, they each get the sneak attack damage.

I'm not sure about the hiding rules and rehiding after a sneak attack. But I do know that even though you are no longer invisible or hidden after the first attack, you still get the sneak attack damage on each of your attacks.

They are all considered to occur at the same time for all intents and purposes.

Cedric

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Only the first attack. After that, he's aware of you.

You can attack once and hide again as a move action, though. This is the "sniping" rule with the -20 to hide.

 

[Malicene]

I agree with Kae Yoss, best move for rogue is moving to flank an opponent (if you've got more than 1 att): every att is sneak till he's flanked !

 

[youspoonybard]

If you fight someone flat-footed, he's only flatfooted for the first attack? Or does he somehow get his dex bonus to AC for your multiple attacks?

For example, I could use the Pounce ability to get multiple attacks on a charge...is he flatfooted for only one of them?

 

[Hypersmurf]

A creature is flat-footed until its first action in combat. So until he gets that first turn, every attack counts (unless he retains Dex while flat-footed).

If he's made flat-footed for some other reason - Flick of the Wrist feat, say - then you need to check the rules for that situation. Flick of the Wrist only makes them flat-footed for one attack, similar to how a feint only denies Dex bonus for one attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

How do iterative sneak attacks work, when the sneak attack is due to the fact that the rogue is Hiding?

All examples use a rogue with a +6/+1 BAB armed either with a longsword or a bow. Combat with the rogue's party has been running for several rounds and no targets are flat-footed.

Example1:
Rogue is hiding. Enemy moves to within melee reach of rogue, but does not spot rogue. On Rogue's turn, rogue does a full attack.
Is the target denied his Dex for each of the rogue's 2 attacks? Or does the target automatically spot the rogue after the first attack? Does the rogue get to try to continue Hiding, but at a -20 penalty? If so, is this roll made after the first or second attack?

Example2:
Rogue is hiding. Enemy moves 30' away from rogue but does not spot rogue. On rogue's turn, rogue does a full attack with bow.
Is the target denied his Dex for each of the rogue's 2 attacks? Or does the target automaticallyt spot the rogue after the first attack? Does the rogue get to try to continue Hiding, but at a -20 penalty? If so, is this roll made after the first or second attack?

Example3: same as either example 1 or 2, but rogue has had the 2nd level spell Invisibility cast on him. After 1st iterative attack rogue loses the invisibility spell. Does that mean that his second iterative attack is not a sneak attack? If so, how does this ruling impact examples 1 and 2?

I'm guessing that the answers to all the examples is: you get 1 sneak attack and then the target spots you. The other, iterative attack is not a sneak attack.

But I'm curious to hear other opinions.

-z, curious

Let me answer that in reverse. If an invisible rogue strikes an opponent, he loses his invisibility. The first attack from the invisible rogue is most likely a sneak attack (assuming the target is denied their dex bonus to the rogue). The rogue loses invisibility. For the second attack, it becomes critical as to whether or not the target was aware of the rogues presence before the strike. If the target was aware, the rogue's second attack is against an aware and actively defending opponent - I'd house rule that the target is no longer denied his dex bonus vs the rogue, thus eliminating the sneak attack on the subsequent attack(s). If the target was not aware, the rogue's second attack is still against a target that is 'flat-footed' against the rogue, and thus the subsequent attack(s) deal sneak attack damage.

That answers your question, but there's a deeper question here that comes up when I mention 'house rule' above. Does a target, who is denied their dex bonus to an opponent (and yes, you can be denied dex to one target and not others) lose that dex bonus until their next turn or is it a 'free action' to regain it if the dex losing condition is removed??

Flanking indicates it's a free action to lose it or gain it. Surprise rounds indicate it's lost until your turn. Bluff/Feint indicates it's a free action, available to be gained or lost per each attack.

If it can be gained or lost as a free action - it empowers rogues to take spring attack, and raises a whole new seperate question better suited for another thread.

My house rule is that it's a free action to lose your dex bonus vs any opponent, but it takes you free action ON YOUR TURN to regain it. This goes with my other house rule about free actions - you are free to 'initiate' or 'respond' to free actions on your turn, but you can only 'respond' to free actions with free actions when it is not your turn.

So your example 1:
First attack and all subsequent attacks should do full sneak attack damage. The rogue cannot do a full attack AND hide, but may attack once and then hide at -20.

Example 2:
Same answer.

Example 3:
See above - complex answer. Short answer - depends on whether target is aware of rogue - if no, then attacks are sneaked, if yes, then only first attack is.

 

[The Souljourner]

Here's the thing - you lose the benefits of hiding and invisibility after the first attack. So your first attack is a sneak attack and the rest aren't..... unless there's something else that causes them to be.

For example, if you were outside combat, and attacked this guy... you would get your surprise round, which includes a sneak attack for two reasons (flat footed opponent and you were hidden). Then it's up to initiative to determine if you get to act before him in the first full round, and thus whether or not you get a full attack sneak attack or not.

If you're in combat, you get the first attack as hidden, and then the rest as not.

-The Souljourner

 

[DM2]

This is a debated question. It usually comes down to one side saying that the entire "full attack" is a single attack, so the opponent is denied his dex for that "full attack".

The other side saying that the opponent is denied his dex for the single first attack of the full attack, and is aware of the rogue on successive iterative attacks that round.

DM2

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Here's the thing - you lose the benefits of hiding and invisibility after the first attack. So your first attack is a sneak attack and the rest aren't..... unless there's something else that causes them to be.

For example, if you were outside combat, and attacked this guy... you would get your surprise round, which includes a sneak attack for two reasons (flat footed opponent and you were hidden). Then it's up to initiative to determine if you get to act before him in the first full round, and thus whether or not you get a full attack sneak attack or not.

If you're in combat, you get the first attack as hidden, and then the rest as not.

-The Souljourner

Two things -

First, you assume you can gain dex bonus vs an opponent instantly - like a free action - even though it's not your turn.

Secondly, you assume there can only be one surprised round - when a new combatant enters on a surprised basis (sneaking thief with invisibility), no one should be able to 'react' to this until their turn.

I disagree on both. I believe the rules support the second point, that no one should be able to react until their turn, but they are spectacularly uncommunicative on the first, hence my house rules to formalize it into making sense. I personally think it should be devestating to have a rogue materialize behind you and strike you 3 or 4 times before you can turn around. Or once, and activate a magic item for invisibility again... Talk about 'blinking' rogues