D&D 5E (2014) It's Official: I was wrong about Surprise!

[ExploderWizard]

These kind of situations are a good time to start playing with the exhaustion rules. Perhaps a given character can stay hyper-frosty for a given amount of time depending on CON, after which they require a rest or suffer exhaustion.

Keeping your senses heightened and your sphincter tight as a drum for hours on end is very exhausting. The game has rules for that- use them.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If it's purely imaginary and there's no one behind the rock then why would surprise come into play? On the other hand if there really is a hidden threat behind the rock that means that the PC in question does not hear, smell, or sense in any way the hidden threat, and is just happening to point his arrow at the rock based on what? Maybe it looks like a good place for someone to hide. The thing is he doesn't know if anyone is there at all. On the other hand, the guy behind the rock knows all about the PC. He probably knows the PC's approximate location from the dry leaves crunching under his footsteps and the sound of him drawing his bow. Unfortunately for the PC, a readied action won't carry through into the first round if he's surprised, but he's probably pointing his bow at the left side of the rock while his assailant leans out from the right side and fires off a shot at him. Now it's time for round two.

Let's say you think there's a Shadow Monk hiding behind a rock, getting ready to kill you. There isn't, but there's an assassin aiming a bow at you from the second-floor window. In this scene, you cannot be surprised even though the threat you thought you imagined was illusory. In fact, you may never even know that the assassin who fired the bow at you wasn't the same person as the Shadow Monk you had deduced to be present earlier; as far as you're concerned, he probably just teleported up to the window right before firing at you. The only thing that matters as far as surprise is concerned is whether you "notice a threat," or as I've called it, are "in kill mode."

I'm not sure about all the non-bolded stuff you have. It sounds like you're saying you think the PC would be surprised in this scenario because the threat wasn't where he expected it to be, but that's not how I would rule it. At best that's just an attack from an unseen attacker, which grants advantage to the attacker.

 

[Reynard]

Anyone who has ever been in the military or otherwise been trained for actual combat knows how exhausting it is to be at "full readiness" for extended periods of time. You not only tire, but start to actually create sensory input. "Ready" goes to "paranoid" very quickly and paranoid is even more problematic than "relaxed." The way most gamers just assume a room by room sweep with no consideration for what that means is both amusing and a little sad. (it is no different for overland travel; if you have never had to trailblaze through difficult terrain for miles on end while carting weapons and supplies it easy easy to say stuff like, "I sleep in my armor.")

 

[thedmstrikes]

I am also surprised (forgive the pun) by the response received. Surprise, as a game concept, could work any way designed I suppose, but I would hardly call this rule surprise. Forgetting the jargon, achieving surprise in combat is tantamount to advantage, though it does not guarantee victory. It does help alot. One does not achieve or defeat surprise because one is aware or unaware that an opponent is available, it is achieved by presenting a different outcome than that which is expected. In this particular example, the kobold would present a certain threat (regardless of the capabilities of the PCs), but the dragon would be a completely different threat and should achieve surprise because the PCs are expecting something from the kobold, not the hidden dragon which is most likely using the kobold as a focus of his misdirection in order to achieve an advantage of surprise with the shock of its sudden appearance, thus changing the parameters of the combat that is about to or has already commenced. As a game concept, I would definitely house rule against this.

I do not want to even talk about Joe Platemail walking around under group stealth....that just sounds wrong to begin with...

 

[Uller]

Anyone who has ever been in the military or otherwise been trained for actual combat knows how exhausting it is to be at "full readiness" for extended periods of time.

Yep. I served in the infantry in Iraq. People get surprised when someone with a weapon pops around a corner unexpectedly. Soldiers on patrol or even sweeping a building get tired or distracted. It requires mental discipline to avoid that. Hence wisdom being the primary stat for checks to notice something isnt right.

 

[Uller]

After playing several games of 5e and the playtest (we completed Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle and most of Lost Mines as well as 7th and 10th level one shots) my group has decided surprise is over powered. Combats in 5e tend to be 2-4 rounds imxp. Potentially getting two full rounds of actions before the otherside can act can turn a hard encounter into one that is trivially easy.

So our implementation is thus: if you are surprised you roll init normally. Attacks made against you have advantage and you have disadvantage on saves and checks. At the start of your turn you are no longer surprised but you are moved to the end of the init queue. When your turn comes up again you can act normally.

Assassins maintain advanatage on anyone until they actually get to act but dont get to use assassinate on anyone who beats them in the init roll. No more two turns of pummelling slower foes.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I am also surprised (forgive the pun) by the response received. Surprise, as a game concept, could work any way designed I suppose, but I would hardly call this rule surprise. Forgetting the jargon, achieving surprise in combat is tantamount to advantage, though it does not guarantee victory. It does help alot. One does not achieve or defeat surprise because one is aware or unaware that an opponent is available, it is achieved by presenting a different outcome than that which is expected. In this particular example, the kobold would present a certain threat (regardless of the capabilities of the PCs), but the dragon would be a completely different threat and should achieve surprise because the PCs are expecting something from the kobold, not the hidden dragon which is most likely using the kobold as a focus of his misdirection in order to achieve an advantage of surprise with the shock of its sudden appearance, thus changing the parameters of the combat that is about to or has already commenced. As a game concept, I would definitely house rule against this.

This kind of surprise is also easily achieved in D&D, although it is not mechanically labelled "surprise." The method depends on what initiative rules you are using, but under the standard out-of-the-box rules it is most easily achieved using a held action. Red Dragon does "I wait until the kobold dies or retreats and then I swoop around the corner and breath fire on the closest warm-blooded target." Surprise!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

After playing several games of 5e and the playtest (we completed Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle and most of Lost Mines as well as 7th and 10th level one shots) my group has decided surprise is over powered. Combats in 5e tend to be 2-4 rounds imxp. Potentially getting two full rounds of actions before the otherside can act can turn a hard encounter into one that is trivially easy.

So our implementation is thus: if you are surprised you roll init normally. Attacks made against you have advantage and you have disadvantage on saves and checks. At the start of your turn you are no longer surprised but you are moved to the end of the init queue. When your turn comes up again you can act normally.

Assassins maintain advanatage on anyone until they actually get to act but dont get to use assassinate on anyone who beats them in the init roll. No more two turns of pummelling slower foes.

Aside from your tweak to assassins, your house rules actually make surprise stronger. Normal surprise behaves pretty much the same way but you don't take disadvantage on saves or grant advantage to attackers. Since you say you think you're nerfing surprise... are you sure you're reading the regular surprise rules correctly?

 

[Uller]

Aside from your tweak to assassins, your house rules actually make surprise stronger. Normal surprise behaves pretty much the same way but you don't take disadvantage on saves or grant advantage to attackers. Since you say you think you're nerfing surprise... are you sure you're reading the regular surprise rules correctly?

Not really. Maybe I wasnt clear that surprised characters get to act at the end of the first round.

Scenario: A surprises B.

New way (B gets to act at the end of Round 1)
Best case for A is A gets one round of actions with advantage before B can act.
Worst case for A is A gets one round of actions without advantage before B can act.

RAW (B doesn't act until its init sometime in round 2)
Best case for A is A gets two rounds of actions before B can act.
Worst case is the same as in the new way.

I'd take two full rounds over one round with advantage most of the time...the corner case is one shot items and spells that are devasting but that might be a feature rather than a bug.

Edit: the reason we implemented this is we've found the stealty PCs are so good at gaining surprise and winning init that they are often taking on entire encounters before the others in the party even get to act. The paladin, wizard and warlock were starting to feel like the mop up crew for the monk and rogue on a lot of encounters. When we ran it this way last week the rogue was much more cautious knowing that if she falied to kill a surprised foe on the first round it would get to hit back...suddenly her bonus action was spent on dash rather than an off hand attack. [emoji6]

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Not really. Maybe I wasnt clear that surprised characters get to act at the end of the first round.

Okay, by "end of the initiative queue" I didn't realize you meant "end of the queue for this round", since RAW doesn't really track rounds. Your house rule strengthens surprise in some ways and weakens it in others.