It's the end of the tier as we know it . . .

[Riastlin]

. . . and I feel nervous.

Or worried, confused, not sure.

Anyhoo, the point here is that my campaign is about to break out of Heroic Tier and into Paragon Tier. I have planned a really large battle to push the party over the brink in an encounter that will also cap the current adventure as seems fitting for the end of a tier. My concern is that I want this to be a really cool and/or "epic" battle, edge of the seat, etc. but I am just not real confident as to how hard I can push the PCs without making it a probable tpk.

Obviously, I realize that every group is different and that a lot depends on how much the party has gone through already, so some brief setup for those willing to bear with me.

The party consists of 6 PCs and is well rounded (2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1.5 leaders [paladin with lots of healing], and a controller). The players know their characters pretty well and do a pretty decent job working together. I plan to have them go through 2 encounters before the finale in order to chew up some resources while making sure they all have an AP and are likely not fully depleted.

The fight itself is inspired by the 3-way fight in Temple Between and will have the PCs squaring off with 2 different factions (which are also fighting each other). Like the Temple Between, I plan to have each faction have enough to constitute a tough fight for the PCs in their own right (but their actions will be divided between the other faction and the PCs). Also present will be a "trap" of sorts that will have the ability to either help or hinder all creatures depending on whether it hits. It will target everything and if it hits, they'll be hindered and if it misses the target will be helped. (Keeping it vague since some of my players come here).

So, for those of you who have handled the transition from Heroic to Paragon, how hard do you think the PCs (assuming relatively wise decision making) can be hit? Should I be looking at a Lvl 14 encounter? Higher? Lower?

Also, I plan to use creatures no higher than 12th level (and maybe only 11th or lower) so as to present more creatures rather than tougher creatures.

Any thoughts on the matter would be most appreciated, and if I am forgetting any necessary info please ask away.

Thanks in advance!

Riast

 

[fba827]

I say

1) aim for a level 13-14 encounter (or 12-13 if your session will be pressed for time)

2) For this scenario you describe, I like your idea of using no creature higher than 11-12 to present more rather than tougher -- it seems appropriate for your mass combat of two factions going at it.

3) trap or terrain issue, a definite must

4) have some pithy quips ready that are specifically tailored for the PCs for what the main bad guys might say when sparring the PCs. 'i.e. you eladrins have been a thorn in my side for too long...' 'your mastery of the divine is great, come join us against the other ones and i will consider letting you live..' and so on. just make it more personal to the PCs and to the campaign, it just helps draw emotion into it (and therefore helps make it more memorable)

5) because this is a 'capstone' type thing, find something / some power / some tactic that you haven't used before (or much before) and would be memorable. Maybe one of the bad guys has a three-failed-save-then-petrification effect or maybe he weakens a lot , or is insubstantial, or maybe the room keeps going dark making for a lot of total concealment/vision/lighting issues, or something. yes, used in mass, those sorts of things are rather frustrating, but might be appropriate for some BBEG as to why he was so tough and feared, etc.


Edit: anyway, don't be nervous - have fun with it and good luck!

 

[Dice4Hire]

It is always hard to judge this, so go with waves. If the first or second wave is getting pounded, go for a third wave. (or fourth) Stop when the fight looks finished.

When I did the WOTC AP, I saw a large difference in effectiveness from 10th to 11th or so.

10th seemed heroic, but with a couple paragon feats, and the PP powers and AP-use, 11th was a big power-up. 10th still seems low-level.

 

[Brys]

With your setup, one way to pull punches (if you're finding that you have to) is the have the factions focus on each other more. Especially if the party is getting beat up, each of the factions will want to try and sucker-punch the other. Hopefully with that in your back pocket, you can make the fight harder than you would otherwise. Also, members of the faction could always run away when it becomes obvious that their side won't win (again, if its close to tpk). Maybe the losing faction helps the party for a round or two before running away, trying to weaken the winning faction so that they aren't so far behind the power curve as they plot their revenge.

 

[Riastlin]

Hey thanks for the quick responses!

The "trap" I have in mind is a definitely something new that they have not seen. Lets just say that it will likely end up spawning the main plot arc of paragon tier. As for the monsters, I do have some ideas in mind but may look for something else since I agree, a unique ability will help make the fight more memorable. This I guess is where my nerves are coming in. I want the fight to be very tough, and very memorable (for reasons other than just being tough).

The waves is an excellent idea. I had already planned for this somewhat. One faction will largely be undead and I was planning on giving one creature there the ability to revive fallen undead (great for minions in particular) but perhaps an alter that can spawn undead too would be appropriate in case the PCs get really hot. As for the other faction, they are going to be teleporting in during the encounter so it was already set up that they could keep bringing reinforcements unless the PCs shut down the portals. I was initially thinking reinforcing with minions (like the undead primarily) but perhaps keeping it the same as the undead and allowing the possibility of standard mobs to come would be good.

Now I just have to come up with some good terrain effects to throw at them.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm in the same place you are!

It's worth noting that the transition shouldn't necessarily be marked by a hard battle, it should be marked by a cool battle that has important things at stake. Consider using dynamic terrain, waves of baddies, and unusual/memorable scenery to mark the occasion.

 

[OnlineDM]

This sounds like a lot of fun, and I agree with the suggestions above. One other thing to keep in mind: Make sure you allow plenty of real-life time for the session. Two battles leading up to this very epic one... it will take time. Lots of time. Especially if there's some interesting role-playing opportunities (which, of course, there should be). I'd hate to see this cool battle get rushed because of time constraints. An epic fight like this should be savored.

Good luck!

 

[Saagael]

Perhaps consider some sort of time limit. If you start by giving the players a time constraint when they hit level ten, the whole level begins to feel like a race to finish the adventure and subsequently reach level 11, which I think is important.

When I made this transition the players were looking for magic artifacts, and level 10 was the race to those artifacts before the opposition got them. This pushed the players to go as fast as they could, skipping out on extended rests, and leaving them worn down for the final encounter.

The final encounter itself was a race, since it involved a magical barrier that was a skill challenge to open, all the while an unending torrent of minions was spawning around them. Eventually they would be overwhelmed, which made them pull out all the stops, come up with unique and out-of-the-box solutions to problems, and ended up a fun encounter. Not the hardest encounter, mind you, but a fun one.

 

[Riastlin]

I'm in the same place you are!

It's worth noting that the transition shouldn't necessarily be marked by a hard battle, it should be marked by a cool battle that has important things at stake. Consider using dynamic terrain, waves of baddies, and unusual/memorable scenery to mark the occasion.

Good point. I think this is one of the reasons why I wanted to keep the monsters at a relatively low level. This way there will be more of them, and they'll be easier to hit (as opposed to slugging it out against a level 14 Solo Soldier for instance). I think I have the waves of baddies and the unusual scenery covered, but I must admit that I am a bit weak when it comes to terrain features/dynamic terrain. Any ideas? I was thinking perhaps of runes that give a bonus to hit or damage, but also immobilize for a round and grant vulnerability, thereby giving players the tough choice but in general I tend to be weak when it comes to terrain so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

The comment about hard does not necessarily equal cool or memorable is deserving of XP but alas, I must spread the love first.

This sounds like a lot of fun, and I agree with the suggestions above. One other thing to keep in mind: Make sure you allow plenty of real-life time for the session. Two battles leading up to this very epic one... it will take time. Lots of time. Especially if there's some interesting role-playing opportunities (which, of course, there should be). I'd hate to see this cool battle get rushed because of time constraints. An epic fight like this should be savored.

Agreed. Unfortunately, time is a factor since we play at the FLGS and there is a board games group that comes in after us. My thought was to have an extra encounter prepared in case it looks as though we won't have enough time to get through the climactic one. Either a Skill Challenge or a relatively easy combat. Nothing that will overly tax the PCs, just enough to more or less stall the final battle to the start of the next session. Our encounters usually take around an hour so I figure this will take at least 2. One thing I was thinking of doing is designating ahead of time which monsters will start by attacking other monsters and simply having them do average damage per round to the other monsters. The theory here being that a) it helps keep the two sides relatively even barring PC intervention and b) it will speed things up by not having me roll endlessly. When the monsters attack a PC of course, they will actually roll.

Perhaps consider some sort of time limit. If you start by giving the players a time constraint when they hit level ten, the whole level begins to feel like a race to finish the adventure and subsequently reach level 11, which I think is important.

When I made this transition the players were looking for magic artifacts, and level 10 was the race to those artifacts before the opposition got them. This pushed the players to go as fast as they could, skipping out on extended rests, and leaving them worn down for the final encounter.

The final encounter itself was a race, since it involved a magical barrier that was a skill challenge to open, all the while an unending torrent of minions was spawning around them. Eventually they would be overwhelmed, which made them pull out all the stops, come up with unique and out-of-the-box solutions to problems, and ended up a fun encounter. Not the hardest encounter, mind you, but a fun one.

Most of heroic tier has been a race in search of the MacGuffins (there are 6) and a race to stop the BBEGs from awakening a powerful primordial so the PCs are definitely conscious of that. I like your barrier example. In my case, the "trap" I mentioned will get worse as the encounter progresses so hopefully that will draw some attention from the PCs (since they normally ignore traps until the end of the fight). Additionally, piggybacking on PCat's terrain comment I'm wondering if perhaps I can incorporate altars into the fight. (They would actually make sense since the fight will take place in a corrupted temple of Pelor) Perhaps they help power up one of the Big Bads while also pumping out more monsters. I already had planned for portals for one faction (which can be shut down by the PCs) and a regenerator for the undead faction so perhaps the altars can serve that function instead. This again gives the PCs something to think about other than just beating on the biggest looking baddies.

Hmmm, so many good ideas but only room for so many. Any rate, keep the ideas coming guys!

 

[fba827]

but I must admit that I am a bit weak when it comes to terrain features/dynamic terrain. Any ideas? I was thinking perhaps of runes that give a bonus to hit or damage, but also immobilize for a round and grant vulnerability, thereby giving players the tough choice but in general I tend to be weak when it comes to terrain so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

To give ideas on terrain features/dynamic terrain, it would help to know what kind of setting/environment you're going to have for this encounter:
caves, lazerous pits, graveyard, church prayer room, dungeon, sewers, etc.

and also, is this environment the 'home turf' for one of your factions? if so, it should probably be some terrain feature that they are immune to or know how to work to their advantage (i.e. fire cultists that are all resistant to fire, then maybe it's a hot place, etc)