Japanes Sword Additions and Corrections

[Enkhidu]

You obviously have never wielded a katana. That or you have little arm strength. I own one, and I can wield it fast in one and EXTREMELY fast in two. I also have a longsword, and it is MUCH slower and heavier than the katana point-wise. (If you don't know what that term means, you should just leave the discussin, because it's what weight issues are primarily about.)

And the longsword you own is obviously poorly blanced. A well balanced blade - of any sort - should have a fulcrum point or balance point approximately one half inch to one and one half inches above the crosspiece.

By the way - any well made (i.e functional) sword weilded with two hands will have its point travel more quickly than the eye can see. Than has more to do with the two handed grip than sword shape.

 

[Shadowrun Man]

Well another reason is because the Japanese had a Isolationist govornment for the longets time. How can others learn from another country if they dont allow them to enter there borders. I am sure some of the black smiths taught there trade to outsides, but not enough make a difference on the spread of the specific techniques used by the Japanese.

 

[mmu1]

A katana does not require two hands. In fact, it is designed for use with either one OR two hands. You need to do more studying on weapons before you say such things.

Great. Why don't you provide some historical examples of it being commonly used one-handed with a shield, then.

Or, for that matter, provide the actual weights and type of your blades before you make claims about speed... How quickly you think you can wave your sword around has no value whatsoever when talking about historical fact.

 

[gamecat]

Great. Why don't you provide some historical examples of it being commonly used one-handed with a shield, then.

Don't quote me on it, but I believe Musashi used the katana-wakazashi style that the Dragon Clan uses in L5R, but I cannot back that up.

 

[mmu1]

Don't quote me on it, but I believe Musashi used the katana-wakazashi style that the Dragon Clan uses in L5R, but I cannot back that up.

Doh... Forgot to say "And please don't bring up Musashi"

All sorts of issues with highly idealized figures aside, a wakizashi isn't exactly a shield...

 

[Anubis]

Great. Why don't you provide some historical examples of it being commonly used one-handed with a shield, then.

Sure. I'm over 1000 years old, so I'll just pull out my old home movies that I shot in feudal Japan where I saw dozens of saurai using their katanas both with one hand and with two hands.

I love how the people who can't find any basis for their arguments always want proof of something that would be generally speaking nearly impossible to come across. Stuff that's generally not written down like whether or not feudal samurai used their katanas with one or two hands.

Instead, I will simply tell you to go to Dogpile and look up literature on katana training. You will find that katana training is for one AND two hands, as it was commonly used BOTH ways, which is part of the reason it was difficult to master AND why it was such a great weapon. (After all, there aren't a whole lot of European swords besides your standard bastard sword weapons that could be used the same way, seeing as you can't use a rapier in two nor can you use a greatsword in one.)

Or, for that matter, provide the actual weights and type of your blades before you make claims about speed... How quickly you think you can wave your sword around has no value whatsoever when talking about historical fact.

Um, I think common sense and holding both weapons tells me which one has better balance and which one weighs more. Without a scale, I'd say the longsword I have is roughly three and a half to four feet long (don't feel like getting up to measure it at the moment) and weighs roughly 7 pounds. The katana is a standard-sized katana at roughly the same length and weighs about half as much.

 

[mmu1]

Um, I think common sense and holding both weapons tells me which one has better balance and which one weighs more. Without a scale, I'd say the longsword I have is roughly three and a half to four feet long (don't feel like getting up to measure it at the moment) and weighs roughly 7 pounds. The katana is a standard-sized katana at roughly the same length and weighs about half as much.

Hah! Thank you, you've just completely eradicated any shreds of credibility you might have had. You'd have a hard time finding a historical battle-ready greatsword weighing 7 pounds. Most weapons that can be compared to the D&D "longsword" didn't break 3 pounds(although hand-and-a-half swords did) and a lot of the lighter ones were just a few ounces over 2 pounds.

Making pronouncements about swordsmanship based on a replica katana and a wall-hanger weighing 7 pounds...

 

[Planesdragon]

I don't believe I'm posting in this thread...

The reason most people in the real world would favor the katana as the sword of choice has nothing to do with it's physical properties. It would be marginally better than a European sword at best, IF THAT. The reasoning behind the katana is the same reasoning behind the rapier and the sabre: finesse.

Acutally, the reason that we in the west have such a facination with the katana is that we (America) own the majority of the surviving katanas--war trophies from WWII, which was the last time the sword was used in combat on a large scale--and even then it was a tertiary weapon.

The quality of Japan's steel has been brought up before, and I want to clarify that point, because it's incredibly important to how weapons evolved.

Japan, and most of the orient, simply doesn't have as much iron avaliable as Europe. (This is true even today, with vastly improved mining capabilities.) Given a smaller ammount of iron, the armor of the orient tends to contain a lot less iron than European armor--you don't seen samurai walking around in steel full plate because it doesn't make sense for any oriental culture to invent a suit of armor that takes swords away from the better part of a hundred soldiers.

Given this lack of armor, the choice sword for warfare in the region wasn't consructed to strike through armor, but instead focused on cutting cloth, bamboo, and flesh. And for defense, the warriors of the orient had to rely more on skill than armor. (Don't think that this means that Europeans don't have a significant ammount of marital skill of their own--the European skill-set just includes a healthy dose of armor-wearing, which changes a lot of the skills necessary for combat.)

Anyway...

If you want to better reflect the mythos of the katana, I suggest the following:

* Make the sword equivalent to a western sword of the same shape, but give it an axe's critical (20/x3). This will help reflect the sword's curved nature.

* Steal the martial arts feats from d20-Modern, or use a similar system to make the katana a "martial arts weapon." I've got a system worked out that I use in my home game, and I can provide it upon request.

In general, you shouldn't try and make the sword inherently better--if you give two farmers a katana and a western bastard sword, neither one is going to have an inherent advantage. Instead, you should allow a fighter to focus on the katana, reflecting the different fighting style of an oriental swordsman. (I suggest a fighter-tweak, giving two basic marital arts feats in exchange for only light armor proficincy.)

 

[Anubis]

Hah! Thank you, you've just completely eradicated any shreds of credibility you might have had. You'd have a hard time finding a historical battle-ready greatsword weighing 7 pounds. Most weapons that can be compared to the D&D "longsword" didn't break 3 pounds(although hand-and-a-half swords did) and a lot of the lighter ones were just a few ounces over 2 pounds.

Making pronouncements about swordsmanship based on a replica katana and a wall-hanger weighing 7 pounds...

You're the one who just lost all credibility thank you very much. Most of the numbers in the D&D books for weight are actually pretty close.

Hard time finding a battle-ready greatsword weighing 7 pounds? Damn skippy, considering the lightest would be around 10 pounds.

Longswords weighing 2 pounds?! My BOOTS weigh 2 pounds, man. So do D&D books. No way does ANY sword over a foot weigh that little unless it's made out of aluminum or titanium (neither a good option of course). Steel is heavy, man. The katana weighs in at 3-6 pounds standard, and a longsword slightly more (although I so believe the 7 pounds one I have is on the heavy end).

You need to do some more research, man. Or buy a sword. Or something. Either that or you and I live in drastically different gravitational fields where everything feels lighter to you than to the rest of the world.

 

[Xeriar]

You're the one who just lost all credibility thank you very much. Most of the numbers in the D&D books for weight are actually pretty close.

Err no, they aren't.

Hard time finding a battle-ready greatsword weighing 7 pounds? Damn skippy, considering the lightest would be around 10 pounds.

7 pounds is the low end, 9-11 pounds seems to be the average. I have heard of one specimen weighing 14 pounds.

Longswords weighing 2 pounds?!

For lighter models.

3 pounds is typical.

(although I so believe the 7 pounds one I have is on the heavy end).

Yeah, that's rather inexcusable. Maybe a silly pommel or hilt?

You need to do some more research, man. Or buy a sword. Or something. Either that or you and I live in drastically different gravitational fields where everything feels lighter to you than to the rest of the world.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/shield_and_weapon_weights.html

I think you do too