Japanes Sword Additions and Corrections

[A'koss]

Just one thing I'd like to touch upon here is weapons and their intended targets. The katana is designed to be very effective against soft targets - that is, generally unarmored or very lightly armored opponents. The clamshell wedge-shaped cross-section, the high Rockwell hardness of their blades, the curvature of the blade and the draw-cuts you make with them are very effective against bare flesh.

However, the katana is a poor sword against an armored opponent, even in chainmail. All those advantages against soft targets now work against you when trying to penetrate armor. The broad wedge-shaped cross-section means that you have to move more material out of the way when you cut and draw-cuts are not the way to penetrate armor.

Katanas tend to be what we call a "hard" sword vs. a typical Euro blade which are considered more "tough" blades (softer). Very hard means brittle and striking hard targets is not good for the blade as they tend to chip and they don't stand up to stresses as well.

Against armored opponents (excepting plate of course), a flat diamond-crossectioned Euro blade is quite a bit more effective. Less material to move out of the way when you cut and the shearing cuts you make with them are better at penetrating armor. Also, as their blades tend not be as hard as a katana, they stand up to hitting hard targets that much better.

Of course, most medieval melee weaponry would be nigh useless in reality against many of the bigger monsters in D&D. Especially bludgeoning weapons agianst things of titanic mass... you really need big, deep, penetrating weapons against things like giants and dragons and the like.

Anyway, just my 2 cp...

A'koss.

 

[Xeriar]

Of course, most medieval melee weaponry would be nigh useless in reality against many of the bigger monsters in D&D. Especially bludgeoning weapons agianst things of titanic mass... you really need big, deep, penetrating weapons against things like giants and dragons and the like.

Indeed, I think something needs to be done about spears in D&D. They are the weapon of humanity, after all, and every culture got very good at cheaply adapting it to a wide variety of needs.

 

[Silverglass]

I think that A'Koss has hit the nail on the head.

There is no ubersword from history. The "best" sword from a culture and period was that which was most effective in the type of combat that the culture encountered. As technology and tactics changed weapons changed and evolved.

The self-isolation of Japan contributed to the perpetuation of a cultural state and that is what made the Katana the "best" weapon over centuries, something for which there is little parallel in European history. That cultural state also perpetuated a "warrior class" that was better trained and equipped than the common soldier. This was the reason for the fearsome reputaion of the Katana within its culture and is probably the reason for its status as an uber-weapon in films and books. Yes a Samurai was an exceptional warrior, but only within his historic context.

The Katana was indeed a "best" weapon, but that was in the context of a model that emphasised mobility and skill over heavy armour (which was just not available when the techniques were developing) so it was used for drawing cuts against unarmoured/lightly armoured opponents where the effects were devestating.

Against european plate armour a katana would be much less useful (as is amply evidenced by the move in european history to weapons delivering a more percussive effect in response to the development of heavier armour). The simple fact is that no sword, however sharp, is going to manage a drawing cut through steel plate. But a heavy blunt weapon can cause damage without penetrating and a pointed weapon can penetrate and cause damage.

Weapons evolve to beat the defences that they face and to suit the tactics of the wielders, that is a simple fact that cannot be argued historically.

For the Japanese weapons I would model them with the D&D weapons that closely correspond to their size but consider giving them a bonus against targets in No/Light Armour or with a natural armour of 4 or less.

So a Katana would be an exotic weapon 1d10 19-20/x2 with a +2 competence bonus to damage against lightly armoured targets and could be masterworked.

 

[Shadowrun Man]

Never though that this thread would get started up again, guess I was wrong. Now that I think about it, that is true that weapons are designed top deal with there intended targets. A euro great-sword can deliever great blunt force trauma on top of having a cutting edge, that is why it is effective agianst plate mail and other similiar armor types. That is a good idea though, add a competence bonus to damage against no to light armor. I still think the critical should be 18-20/x2 and 2d4 damage to reflect the really long and sharp blade, but that is just me.

 

[genshou]

Never though that this thread would get started up again, guess I was wrong. Now that I think about it, that is true that weapons are designed top deal with there intended targets. A euro great-sword can deliever great blunt force trauma on top of having a cutting edge, that is why it is effective agianst plate mail and other similiar armor types. That is a good idea though, add a competence bonus to damage against no to light armor. I still think the critical should be 18-20/x2 and 2d4 damage to reflect the really long and sharp blade, but that is just me.

Aww man... I didn't even notice this latest post until now. That's a good idea, but remember that D&D generalizes everything. If you want to do that kind of specification against armor in your game, that's up to you. I'm gonna steal it and use it, though, for my VP/WP D&D game, which provides DR for some armor and standard AC bonuses for others (or some combination of the two). But that doesn't have much Oriental influence... hmm...

Boosting post count on dead threads

 

[green slime]

You understand that a standart DnD Greatsword measure 180cm, which is 72inches, so it would make it 82inches (205cm), or six feet and ten inches long.

I don't think thats right, since japanese people are rumored to be short (I can't say for sure, 'cause I don't know any japanese man/woman). Even I, who is very tall (about 2 meters tall) wouldn't be comfortable of using such swords, even on an horse. But I sure am no expert.
Frankto

You forget that even in europe, 700 years the average height was much lower than what it is today. The benefits of a healthy diet and good healthcare.

And then there is the fact that they did more actual physical work than we do as well. Me? I'm breathing heavy after a flight of stairs, without my armour on...

 

[Arkhandus]

These are some approximation statistics I've come up for certain oriental blades in my game...

Format:
Size
Name * Cost * Weight * AC * Hardness * HP * Break DC
Damage * Threat/Critical * Range Increment
^^^Special feature and special use descriptions.



Small
Wakizashi * 25 gp * 3 lbs. * AC 6 * Hardness 7 * HP 2 * Break DC 14
2d3 (Slashing) or 1d4 (Piercing) * T/C 18-20/x2 (19-20/x2) * --------

^^^Each time the wakizashi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the wakizashi's Hardness by 1.
^^^Likewise, reduce wakizashi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no more than one size category larger than the wakizashi. If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in wakizashi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
^^^The wakizashi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater. A wakizashi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of small or medium size, or one-handed by a larger character.
^^^If masterwork, wakizashi grant a +1 attack bonus as usual, plus, if wielded proficiently, a circumstance bonus of +1 on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.


Medium
Katana * 50 gp * 6 lbs. * AC 5 * Hardness 7 * HP 3 * Break DC 14
2d4 (Slashing) or 1d4 (Piercing) * T/C 18-20/x3 (19-20/x2) * --------

^^^Each time the katana strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the katana's Hardness by 1. Likewise, reduce katana Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no more than one size category larger than the katana. If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in katana Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
^^^The katana deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater. A katana can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of medium size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the katana in one hand requires Strength of at least 13, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any one-handed katana proficiency. A small character requires the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to wield a katana two-handed.
^^^If masterwork, katana grant a +1 attack bonus as usual, plus, if wielded proficiently, a circumstance bonus of +2 on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.


Large
No-Dachi (Nodatchi) * 65 gp * 20 lbs. * AC 4 * Hardness 10 * HP 10 * Break DC 17
3d4 (Slashing) or 1d6 (Piercing) * T/C 17-20/x2 (19-20/x2) * --------

^^^Each time the no-dachi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the no-dachi's Hardness by 1. Likewise, reduce no-dachi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 7 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no larger than the no-dachi. If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in no-dachi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
^^^The no-dachi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater. A no-dachi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the no-dachi two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed no-dachi proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the no-dachi is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed no-dachi proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+.
^^^The no-dachi's great size incurs a -2 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties if wielded nonproficiently. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or at least has Strength of 19+, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the no-dachi and cannot threaten an area with it.
^^^A no-dachi has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the no-dachi deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -2 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet. Any proficient character wielding the no-dachi may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the no-dachi's reach.
^^^If masterwork, no-dachi grant a +1 attack bonus as usual, plus, if wielded proficiently, a circumstance bonus of +1 on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.


Large
Zanmato * 90 gp * 30 lbs. * AC 4 * Hardness 10 * HP 13 * Break DC 20
4d4 (Slashing) or 1d8 (Piercing) * T/C 20/x3 (19-20/x2) * --------

^^^A zanmato can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the zanmato two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed zanmato proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the zanmato is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed zanmato proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+.
^^^The zanmato's great size incurs a -3 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties if wielded nonproficiently. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or at least has Strength of 19+, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the zanmato and cannot threaten an area with it.
^^^A zanmato has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the zanmato deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -3 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet. Any proficient character wielding the zanmato may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the no-dachi's reach.

How close do you think these approximations are?

 

[Shadowrun Man]

I like how you have the Katana and other related swords (aka Wakizashi, No-Dochi, and Zanmato) rules, but I would only apply the penalties to any armor heavier then light. I mean after refreshing my memory on Japanese history, weapons and other related subjects with some helpful jump start from fellow EnWorld posters, thanks. The Katana and other sword related to it where effective lightly armored troops and really effective against unarmored troops. But the heavier stuff would have definite advantage in protection againt the Katana and other related weapons. I dont believe the Katanas blade is that fragile, I would up the hardness that would be required to start damaging the blade, I'll get back to that after I do some more reading. As a side note you missed the Tanto.

 

[micromaximum]

Not all Japanese armor was made out of wood. Early armor consisted primarily of leather and laquered wood. Later versions of armor incorporated as much metal as possible.

Just as in Europe, the common Japanese soldier would only have access to cheap armor which meant little steel and lots of wood and leather or nothing at all. However, any samurai that could afford it was going to own a set of steel armor. It's just common sense, you're going to have the best protection you can afford and even though the supply of metal in Japan was limited it wasn't out of reach for the wealthy. The wealthiest could even afford to provide metal armor for some of their retainers.

It's not raining and humid all of the time throughout Japan so the climate doesn't play as much of a role as people sometimes believe. Even when it was humid and raining no one was running around in their armor all day so the chances of dying from heat exhaustion or having your armor damaged by rust were no greater than what many Europeans had to deal with.

As for Katana, again you really need to frame your discussion during a certain time period because Katana evolved over time. As you might expect, early Katana were not as effective as later Katana and might not even be immediately recognizable as such. Not all Katana are the same, either. The size of the blade varied by as much as two feet and the length of the grip and curvature of the blade also varied.

 

[genshou]

Large
No-Dachi (Nodatchi) * 65 gp * 20 lbs. * AC 4 * Hardness 10 * HP 10 * Break DC 17
3d4 (Slashing) or 1d6 (Piercing) * T/C 17-20/x2 (19-20/x2) * --------

^^^Each time the no-dachi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the no-dachi's Hardness by 1. Likewise, reduce no-dachi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 7 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no larger than the no-dachi. If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in no-dachi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
^^^The no-dachi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater. A no-dachi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the no-dachi two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed no-dachi proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the no-dachi is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed no-dachi proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+.
^^^The no-dachi's great size incurs a -2 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties if wielded nonproficiently. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or at least has Strength of 19+, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the no-dachi and cannot threaten an area with it.
^^^A no-dachi has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the no-dachi deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -2 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet. Any proficient character wielding the no-dachi may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the no-dachi's reach.
^^^If masterwork, no-dachi grant a +1 attack bonus as usual, plus, if wielded proficiently, a circumstance bonus of +1 on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.

I like what you've done with the no-dachi. It's a lot like the rules I came up with for excessively large weapons when I noted the utter lack of true no-dachi in Oriental Adventures. Other than the part already commented on, about reduction of hardness, medium/heavy armor vs. +5 armor bonus, etc. I'd base mithral armor off of its original type, though. Just as a side-note.

As for the katana/wakizashi, I have no idea as I only know how to use one. I don't know anything about ability to withstand damage in battle, etc. AFAIK though, the katana isn't any easier to break than a bastard sword. I've seen them exposed to a lot of force, after all. Maybe the reason people think the katana is so weak is because they've seen it fracture or break when used in an iaijutsu duel? I would bet that a masterwork bastard sword in an iaijutsu duel wouldn't fare so well, either. After all, those draws are very powerful attacks.