Jon Tweet - Magic Item Creation

[WhatGravitas]

Just had a thought re: low-magic games.

Wizards are overpowered. Reducing their power through XP while increasing a Fighter's power through magic items: win-win.

Unless you consider the fact, that PCs with a lower level get more XP. If you time correctly, you can come out even.

Consider a wizard close to the next level (i.e. next encounter will do the level-up). He reduces his XP, so he'll not level up, but by the next encounter, he WILL level up and since he gets more than usual, chances are, that that lag will be small or he'll even come out even. AFAIK, if you do that very precisely, you can even come out ahead.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Amadan]

It's an improvement over the old mechanic of 'cast Permanency, forever loose a point of Constitution'.

 

[boerngrim]

Hi
The thing I don't like about the xp cost for magic item creation is that the non caster classes don't have to give up xp to use any of their class abilities or class specififc feats. I say if a wizard or cleric has to give up xp to make a wand, make the fighter give up xp everytime he uses whirlwind attack. I know that seems pretty silly.

 

[Shieldhaven]

When I first came across this rule (back in the long-long-ago), I assumed that the balance came when the non-casters were the first to die in most battles, and so would lose XP upon resurrection. Of course, it takes an unbelievable amount of item creation to balance the loss of XP from one death, and the fragility of the wizard and the wide range of spells the various casters lose XP casting shows me that this really doesn't balance well all in all.

Haven

 

[thorian]

Because in any campaign where they're used, one character, for the good of the group, gets to permanently slow his or her advancement. If the XP was taken from the character benefiting, it would be fair. But that fighter isn't giving up anything more than cash for that +5 vorpal greatsword, while the wizard is permanently weaker because of it.

It's a great idea if one was just, say, writing novels about these characters. At the table, though, it's crap.

I don't see how it slows advancement unless the character in question is spending exorbitant amounts of XP on crafting. If the character does drop a level below the rest of the party, the character will quickly catch back up because the lower level characters in the party gain more XP than the higher level characters. Thus, the slowed advancement is only a temporary issue.

What about an average DM?

Are you saying a party of characters with levels 12, 12, 11, 12 is any harder to gm for than a party with four 12th level characters (for example)?

 

[Twowolves]

Unless you consider the fact, that PCs with a lower level get more XP. If you time correctly, you can come out even.

Consider a wizard close to the next level (i.e. next encounter will do the level-up). He reduces his XP, so he'll not level up, but by the next encounter, he WILL level up and since he gets more than usual, chances are, that that lag will be small or he'll even come out even. AFAIK, if you do that very precisely, you can even come out ahead.

Cheers, LT.

Exactly. Lower level PCs get more xp in proportion to higher level PCs in the same party. The wizard may be a level behind the fighter, but now he has a wand of fireballs. I'd say that the wand more than makes up for the xp lag in the short term, and in the long term, the xp will even out anyway.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't see how it slows advancement unless the character in question is spending exorbitant amounts of XP on crafting.

Well, in the campaign I'm playing in, where we started from level 1. If you're down a few hundred XP when that's a significant portion of the XP you need to level, it's an issue.

If the character does drop a level below the rest of the party, the character will quickly catch back up because the lower level characters in the party gain more XP than the higher level characters.

If he lives. Unless you're not doing any magical item creation until higher level -- and remember, the "fix" for running out of spells at low levels is to churn out lots of scrolls and wands -- that level difference can be pretty significant in terms of spells available and total hit points.

Are you saying a party of characters with levels 12, 12, 11, 12 is any harder to gm for than a party with four 12th level characters (for example)?

Level 12 characters are hardly fragile snowflakes. I'm more concerned about level 2 and 3 characters.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Exactly. Lower level PCs get more xp in proportion to higher level PCs in the same party. The wizard may be a level behind the fighter, but now he has a wand of fireballs. I'd say that the wand more than makes up for the xp lag in the short term, and in the long term, the xp will even out anyway.

How about the wizard creating stuff for other classes? His sacrifice and being behind a level is not an issue because the fighter is better off?

By that logic, why not have the cleric be burning XP to heal the party, since the cleric benefits by having them alive to help out?

It's a crappy system that works well only if 1) you don't actually use it or 2) you're not the poor sucker roped into taking Craft Wondrous Items for the party.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Unless you consider the fact, that PCs with a lower level get more XP. If you time correctly, you can come out even.

Consider a wizard close to the next level (i.e. next encounter will do the level-up). He reduces his XP, so he'll not level up, but by the next encounter, he WILL level up and since he gets more than usual, chances are, that that lag will be small or he'll even come out even. AFAIK, if you do that very precisely, you can even come out ahead.

Cheers, LT.

Huh? Lower level PCs get more XP? They way I play it, and the way it reads in the DMG, you calculate the total XP based upon average party level, then divide that number evenly among the party members.

If the Wizard is 2000 XP behind the rest of the party, he will always be 2000 XP behind, and probably will fall further back as he creates new magic items. Sure, when he gains another 2000 XP he will level and be the same as the rest of the party, but when they all level up, he will still need another 2000 XP and will be behind again, unless the award jumps everyone else 2000+ XP past the level barrier.

 

[thorian]

It's a crappy system that works well only if 1) you don't actually use it or 2) you're not the poor sucker roped into taking Craft Wondrous Items for the party.

Wouldn't the members of your party compensate your crafting expenditure of XP with GP? For instance, we would pay the crafters in our party 75% of the book value to craft items for us. That way, the crafter gets some extra wealth by making a slight profit, the recipients get magic items at a discount, and the party is better off overall with customized items.