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Jump with attack?

robaustin

First Post
Situation: Player character on an 8 foot tall 3 foot wide wall. Large creature in square next to wall. Character wants to jump down from wall and attack (with a greataxe).

I can't remember what the rules say about this and I can't find it. I THINK that it's treated as a charge - but do I also do a jump check and would the Pc fall prone if they failed it?

--*Rob
 

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Thanee

First Post
Without knowing if there actually are rules for this, I would treat it just like a charge, but would require a successful jump check to avoid falling and missing the attack as well as receiving full falling damage.

Bye
Thanee
 

Darklone

Registered User
Take into account that the PC actually jumps approximately 10 ft down through threatened squares, thus provoking AoOs for movement ;)
 

cordell

First Post
Ok this is off-topic, but if the player threatens 5 feet, and the wall is 8 feet high, he can attack from on top of the wall, yeah? Unless maybe I missed something.

Other thoughts:

--Jumping down 8 feet is technically more than a 5 foot step, so yeah, in my opinion, he would provoke an AoO.

--I wouldn't allow a Tumble check here, but I would require a Jump check to land properly and pull off the attack. The DC would not be high, but if he gets hit with the AoO, I would add the damage to the DC (maybe/probably putting it into the "high DC" territory.) Success = allowed to make a single attack, Failure= falls prone.

--The attack isn't Charging - it's less than the minimum 10 feet required.

--I would try to stick with 5 foot increments when designing a place where a battle might occur. A few things are easier with this encounter if the wall is 10 feet high - or only 5 feet high, any multiple of 5 would be better than "8".
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I think this is covered by the DMG guidance and I certainly *wouldn't* apply an AoO - otherwise you are mechanically telling your players not to bother being creative by penalising attempts to be creative.
 

White-Wolf

First Post
Yeah. I like coming up with different ways to fight. I’m not sure I don’t want to steel anyone thread but if you fall 30 feet and attack would that be a 2x damage? if you do a charge fly of minimum 30 feet with 10 feel dropping in altitude it becomes a 2x. its based of using momentum to increase the damage of your attack. So if you jumped or fall 30 feet could you attack and do a tumble check when you land?

Also once I wanted to (with a low level character) to run along the wall and attack behind a creature that if I landed in the square would be flanking. I wanted to use the wall to get around everyone else that was trying to get peace of this evil wizard. Sadly the check I would have had to make was too high for my character so im going to save it for latter.

AoO i think is based of reach but also your moving around in the squares around them so they think they can get an attack in some ware with all your shifty movement. But falling and attacking onto a enemy if the enemy while he doesn’t know your there, he shouldn’t get an AoO. But if he knows your there, he should. Because your basically leaping onto his sword.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
There are already rules for all of this.

Jumping less than 10' means no charge. However, attacking from higher ground should apply.

A jump check DC 15 will reduce falling damage by reducing height intentionally jumped down by 10' (for falling damage purposes).

The same thing will work for tumble (and IIRC, they stack - one jump check, one tumble check, both at DC 15 will reduce falling damage as if you had fallen 20' less).

For the height of 8 feet just do a back calculation on how far a jump check dc 15 would get you and do the proportion of 4/5's the distance for what the dc will be for 8 feet. (This is not in the rules but seems to make sense).

If you are going to count the 8 feet as 10', which is something I'd recommend (D&D is in the abstract 5 foot square world where 0-5 feet is 5 feet, 6-10 feet is 10 feet, etc.), then let him charge and make the jump and/or tumble check. Also, falling damage is applied to both the faller and what he collides with. Thus, the damage is reduced for the faller but if I am reading the rules correctly, not for the creature collided with. If the falling is turned into an attack, the falling damage applies to the attack (I forget where I got this from, but I designed an entire class - Dragoon from FFII - around the concept). So for 10' jump (6-10') roll a charge attack with appropriate benefits from attacking from higher ground as well (should be +3 total) and roll damage normally with a bonus 1d6 dmg (that would not be multiplied). Roll a DC 15 jump check or tumble check to ensure that you don't take 1d6 dmg from falling.

I forget the rules for preventing landing prone. I think that specifically requires a tumble check (second tumble check if the check to reduce dmg is tumble) and think the dc is based on the distance fallen - but don't quote me on that. Looking to tripping for a guideline, it would seem to make sense that either a str or dex check (jump or tumble respectively) is appropriate. IDHMBWM though, so I couldn't say for sure.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
Oh yeah,

You would provoke an AoO from this maneuver, but not until after you attacked:

from vertical view (X=large creature, |=wall, P=character, ..=1 5'x5' space)

jump:

......P
XX..|
XX..|

attack (moved 5 feet forward off the wall)

....P..
XX..|
XX..|

provokes AoO from second 5' of movement through threatened squares:

.......
XXP|
XX..|

Actually, from this little schematic I might have to revise my previous post - really you have to have a controlled fall for 10' to get the charge and dmg bonus. I suppose in this case P could wait until he reached the ground (or right before, to make the attack). He could move diagonally down instead of straight out to get the direct line of the charge. It would make more sense to me though, if he jumped up and then on his way back down made the attack. In fact, it would be really damn cool if the following happened:

.........
........P
..XX..|
..XX..|

......P..
.........
..XX..|
..XX..|

....P....
.........
..XX..|
..XX..|

..........
..P......
..XX..|
..XX..|

..........
..........
PXX..|
..XX..|

The last diagram would be the point of the attack. The movement to that position would provoke an AoO (presuming no reach), and if using facing rules, would be at a -10 because you are behind the creature. Moreover, you'd get a +7 to the attack, +2 from charging, +1 from higher ground, and +4 from attacking from the rear. I would probably require a tumble check in this scenario to be able to orient your self properly in the air (efffectively a 180 degree turn that could be combined with a flip for added descriptive cool factor) probably at DC 10.

Of course, if the large monster has reach this is going to be a lot more difficult - not just to pull off but mechanically. How would the damage effect your jump. Would a bashing weapon be more difficult than a slashing? Would it just increase the DC of the jump check? Would it impose a penalty to attack. I would say probably -4 to attack, and the dmg would be added to the tumble check to orient yourself and the jump check to make it there. Of course, if you had tumble you could just use it for the first 15 feet of movement so that the attack was made behind the creature and at the -10 to hit.

BTW, strictly speaking, I don't think higher ground rules apply in this situation. I think by the letter of the rules, you have to be touching the ground. Of course, I think my ruling is within the spirit of the rules. Another note, you'll notice that the charging is not in a straight line - it is instead an arc. Because jumping charges are legal. I would say that a vertical gentle change in slope is allowable for charging. Ruling other wise would mean the following situation would not be possible:

bird's eye view:

xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
->->->
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

vertical view:

xxxxx->
xxx/xxx
->xxxx

You are moving in a straight line in terms of a bird's eye view but not vertically. I think, again within the spirit of the rules, that the straight line for charging is meant only for bird's eye view 2-D perspective.
 

Kemrain

First Post
Gaiden said:
You are moving in a straight line in terms of a bird's eye view but not vertically. I think, again within the spirit of the rules, that the straight line for charging is meant only for bird's eye view 2-D perspective.
Does this mean that I could start from a standing position on level ground, and fly up, say, 15 feet, before diving at someone in a charge to get the +2 charge bonus, the +1 higher ground bonus, and automatic double damage?

What if I didn't fly straight up but climbed at a 45 degree angle?

- Kemrain the Avian.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
Kemrain said:
Does this mean that I could start from a standing position on level ground, and fly up, say, 15 feet, before diving at someone in a charge to get the +2 charge bonus, the +1 higher ground bonus, and automatic double damage?

What if I didn't fly straight up but climbed at a 45 degree angle?

- Kemrain the Avian.

I would not think so. You have a 180 degree turn in the first example and a 90 degree turn in the second despite both being straight from a bird's eye perspective. I suppose my assertion between bird's eye views and vertical viewing deserves some qualification.

Let's start with this example: you and your opponent are on the exterior of a ginormous sphere. You are literally a spec by comparison. You run towards your foe intending to charge. We'll set up dimensions so that your body runs along the z axis forward and backwards is along the y and left and right is along the x. You move in a straight line in the x-y plane because your direction of movement is directly on the y axis. However, in the z y plane you are moving along a convex curved line. Can you charge?

Well as you might have guess, that ginormous sphere is intended to be a planet with the obvious correlary, that yes you can charge, even though your y-z movement is not precisely linear.

Take this a step further and say now the sphere is far tinier - say a 200' radius and you are now on the inside. You start at point a and move to a point b whose tangent line forms an isoscelesl triangle with the radii to a and b. In laymen's terms you start up the slope on a particular side of the sphere and move opposite the sphere down the center and then up the opposite side. You have in sense simply changed the arc curvature of your movement from the former planet example. I'll ignore the slippery slope this argument leads to (no pun intended).

It seems within the spirit of the rules to allow some sort of curvature to a charge so long as there is no x-y nonlinear movement. All of this of course only pertains to grounded characters - a caveat I did not include in the post above. Incorporating 3-D motility changes this a bit. The spirit is the same, but some additional qualifications are necessary for the lawyers.

A jumping character or aerial character I would think should follow the same general principle as the curvature example above. For example, a grounded character that leaps over a chasm doing a flying jump kick into an enemy on the other side I would think should be entitled to a charge. let's presume the following setup (in the z-y plane): (..=space, _=air, X=enemy, A=character)

A.....____......X

Technically the character ought to be moving as follows to get the charge bonus:

->->->->->->->

However, really the character would move something like this (it is a bit less fluid because of the format, but you get the idea):
.........->
......./....\
->->.____->->

Descriptively, the chracter races towards the edge, long jumps over and lands with his foot in X's face. To go back to the original thread, jumping down from the ledge fortunately doesn't even need consider this as it can actually be accomplished with a straight line in 3-D.

So for a jumping character, I'd say a long jump charge is allowable. I am not so sure about a high jump. A high jump is characterized by no forward movement. Therefore, by definition, the character is making a 180 degree change in vector angle:

..
..
..
X

..
..
X
..

..
X
..
..

X
..
..
..

..
X
..
..

..
..
X
..

..
..
..
X

X moves up and then reverses direction. Think of it in terms of physics vectors. gravity will be the y axis and forward movement is x. In the first example, y is a constant and x is a constant (for the jump portion). The character is continuously moving straight forward with some added lift that is counteracted by gravity.

In the latter example, x = 0 and thus cannot really be used for the purposes of the direction of movement. y must now be used for the direction of movement, and y changes in terms of direction whereas x did not change in the first example.

This same logic would apply to aerial movement, climbing and diving vertically would not grant a charge. However, as with the example of the long jump, I would think the angled climb followed by an angled dive would not be too different than the jumping example.

Of course, this vertical bit could be over come if the character jumped or flew high enough. You are limited to a certain distance of movement a round (even from falling - although I don't remember how far it is exactly). So if you jump high enough. You won't get back down to the ground all the way by the end of your turn, so the following turn, your movement will start in one direction and stay in that direction.

Another thing, you don't multiply your damage when doing a flying/jumping charge unless you have a specific feat that allows such. The only bonus damage you get is the falling damage you would take also being applied to what you land on. Normally this would be the ground and thus it would not matter.
 

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