Just how far can a person see anyway?

[Witness]

I think a better question is not "how far can a person see?" but rather "how far can a person target?" Assuming optimal conditions, a person can likely see more than far enough, so the Spot DC in the DMG would be used to determine not whether or not the person could see the target, but whether they could accurately target for an attack. At a distance, it is very difficult to accurately determine whether an object at a distance is 500 feet away, or 600, or 400.

 

[Celebrim]

Witness: But spot (along with listen) is used to determine surprise. So 'Spot' is a measurement of awareness (wisdom) and visual accuity. It might possibly be used to judge distance, though that seems to me properly more a component of BAB than any other skill, but it's primary usage is to determine whether or not something sees something else. For instance, it is used as an opposed roll to 'hide'. If the spot DC's in the DMG were to be used in some special fashion other than the normal usage for 'spot', you would think that the DMG would have said so. Not only that, but the DC's of the equivalent 'listen' skill very clearly determine whether you can hear something. Lastly, I would expect rules for determining range to be written slightly different, and would emphasize the 'shooters' familiarity with the target and the surroundings.

I think the designers basically 'fudged' listen and spot. I think that they were well aware that as distance grew large that the system broke down, but they let it go for the following reasons. First, they wanted to keep the rules simple. Second, they designed the game with an emphasis on 'classic' dungeon exploration and assumed most encounters would be at a sufficiently short range (under 200') that the system would basically work. Lastly, they made the basic assumption that if the object wasn't obscured you could automatically see it - in the since that you automatically fail to hide if you have nothing whatsoever to conceal you. Working together, the assumptions are fine.

But if you break the assumption that encounters are taking place at a fairly short distance, the rest of the design falls apart and the DM is left with rule 0.

So what I'm telling you is my rule 0 for encounters that occur at a long distance.

 

[diaglo]

other than Stalker0's first example of a wizard and his metamagic fireball.

what about an archer with his long comp. bow and far shot , etc...feats?

110ft x 10 range increments for a long comp bow =1100 ft

now factor in the far shot feat 1.5 x 110ft x 10 = 1650 ft.

but of course you have all of the negatives for the range. still a 20 is an automatic hit. so 5% of the time at least you will hit further than you can see.

 

[chucku]

I've use my GPS for just this purpose with my players. We went out to the park, waypointed a landmark and walked away. Then you see what it looks like from various distances. Things get pretty damn tiny and hard to spot at 1000 meters!

 

[maybeso]

I've use my GPS for just this purpose with my players. We went out to the park, waypointed a landmark and walked away. Then you see what it looks like from various distances. Things get pretty damn tiny and hard to spot at 1000 meters!

that's 3,280 feet! The max encounter range in the DMG is 640 feet for open grassland? I know for a fact that I have a good chance to recognize someone I know at 1500 feet over water, but in game I would have no chance of knowing where they were, let alone who.

 

[Xeriar]

in the real world, it depends on the elevation and terrain.

the curvature of the planet is the last limiting factor.

think of being at sea on a clear calm day.

For the curvature of the planet, the horizon is at the square root of twice your height times the radius of the body.

So, planet with radius of 5,000 kilometers (smaller than Earth), and someone standing two meters tall sees 10 kilometers. If they're standing on a 6m wall, they see 20, and so on.

Quality of vision varies, of course, but even my poor vision can pick out small cars at two miles well enough that I could still see whether or not someone was sitting in the back seat (clear day, well positioned sun, 600 mile drive, ugh).

 

[LazarusLong42]

As far as a fireball goes, in theory you don't need to be able to *see* the area at all; there just needs to be an open path to it. A lenient DM might allow you to target an area halfway around the world (assuming, of course, that you had the available range ), though you'd never know if the spell had any effect, and you probably don't know if there are any enemies in your target area.

More practically, at 1600 ft, even in-game with the egregiously bad Spot rules... well, two words: Owl Familiar. Even if you can't see the area, your familiar can, and can help you target your fireball.

 

[Celebrim]

"that's 3,280 feet! The max encounter range in the DMG is 640 feet for open grassland? I know for a fact that I have a good chance to recognize someone I know at 1500 feet over water, but in game I would have no chance of knowing where they were, let alone who."

And that's precisely my point. Let's take the rules at thier word.

Imagine I'm standing under 10 feet away and not hiding when you walk into the room. What is the chance that you see me? Under the rules, not hiding is the same as taking '0' in hide and since I was not trying to hide (or have no cover to hide behind), lets assume for now that I don't apply a skill modifier. Further, since medium sized creatures have no modifier to 'hide' rolls, the modifier is +0. If you roll better than a 0, then you spot me. Since you can take 10 unless you are rushed, even a person with 3 wisdom should spot me every time. So unless there are situational modifiers (its dark, you are distracted, or rushed), the rules generate the realistic result of me pretty much always getting 'spotted' and we don't have to worry about rolling.

At 100', there is a 50% chance I'll go unnoticed, which may not be accurate but is at least believable.

All is well until we run the same test at 300 feet (or more). Now suddenly the DC by the rules is +30. Since the initial DC is 0, +30 yields 30 DC. Only a person with near epic levels of spot will notice me without resorting to 'rule 0' and assuming I should be spotable.

By the time we get out to real world reasonable limitations on vision, say two miles, the DC goes up by +1000 under the strict rules and the attacker is now better than invisible. One can easily imagine situations in which a character with 20 better in his spot skill than his target gets back 200' further than his targets 'limit of game vision' and unloads with spells with long range or a longbow and under the rules at least is undectable without magical aid.

Under my suggestion, the spot DC modifier at 3280 feet falls from +328, to +21. Even that is probably too high, but it is a step in the right direction and doesn't require that much more complex of math.

 

[melkoriii]

As far as a fireball goes, in theory you don't need to be able to *see* the area at all; there just needs to be an open path to it. A lenient DM might allow you to target an area halfway around the world (assuming, of course, that you had the available range ), though you'd never know if the spell had any effect, and you probably don't know if there are any enemies in your target area.

Oh you would know if there was any enemies there.

"Hay guys I think I just gained a lvl!"

 

[Black Omega]

This can be a problem on many levels. Say a sorcerer likes to cast fireball. With Imp Invise he can fly back around 600 feet and drop fireballs all day while being effectively invulnerable since See Invise has a range limitation that's shorter than the range of a fireball. I know there are ways to counter this but it seems weird offense so outranges detection.