Just Plain Broken

[Rystil Arden]

The main skills I can think of that present this problem are Concentration and Jump (and the latter is less significant; I think there's only one maneuver that has its damage output or something based on a Jump check, while other maneuvers are just helped out, but not broken, when used with a +Jump item).

There's one that uses a Jump check as the save DC vs a stun effect. This is right-out insane, so most GMs, even those that allow Bo9S, nerf or ban that one.

 

[Cameron]

Divine Metamagic can give absurd metamagic that was never meant to be (Persistent and Quickened spells of your highest level). If you put the regular limits on it that you can't use it to Metamagic above your maximum spell level available, it should be fine.

Arcane Strike, on the other hand, I'm not sure why he called it out. It's a fair and reasonable feat. My guess: he's seen a Wraithstrike build that also has Arcane Strike in it and made Arcane Strike look worse than it is.

Well, 2 feats for what is generally a once-a-day ability doesn't seem to be a worthwhile investment to me. Persistent is even worse: 3 feats for a once-a-day ability *if* you have 18 Cha or invest in items to give you 18 Cha.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, 2 feats for what is generally a once-a-day ability doesn't seem to be a worthwhile investment to me. Persistent is even worse: 3 feats for a once-a-day ability *if* you have 18 Cha or invest in items to give you 18 Cha.

You mean an all day ability. It is persistent, after all. And you don't need 18 Cha if you have Extra Turning, a Nightstick, or a domain that grants Extra Turning.

But this isn't the thread to talk about Divine Metamagic. If you don't have search to find the multiple super-long threads about that topic in the Rules Forum.

And hey, Rage is a 1/day ability for low-level Barbarians, but I've seen plenty of Barbarians that did very well, or characters that dipped a level in Barbarian to get it. Consider the number of feats required to get Sudden Quicken, also a 1/day feat.

 

[Nifft]

There's one that uses a Jump check as the save DC vs a stun effect. This is right-out insane, so most GMs, even those that allow Bo9S, nerf or ban that one.

Yes. Luckily, the pattern for fixing it is clear: DC (10 + level) + Strength modifier results in a very sane DC.

Divine Metamagic can give absurd metamagic that was never meant to be (Persistent and Quickened spells of your highest level).

Yep yep yep. Look at all the prerequisites for Sudden Quicken vs. all the other Sudden feats... getting a free extra spell of your highest level off even 1/day is REALLY strong, particularly when it's got by using a resource that is only effective against a small minority of foes.

(Basically, anything that turns a highly specialized resource into a generally useful resource is a power-up. IMHO Clerics are the last class in need of a power-up! Well, maybe second last... but still. )

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cameron]

You mean an all day ability. It is persistent, after all. And you don't need 18 Cha if you have Extra Turning, a Nightstick, or a domain that grants Extra Turning.

But this isn't the thread to talk about Divine Metamagic. If you don't have search to find the multiple super-long threads about that topic in the Rules Forum.

And hey, Rage is a 1/day ability for low-level Barbarians, but I've seen plenty of Barbarians that did very well, or characters that dipped a level in Barbarian to get it. Consider the number of feats required to get Instant Quicken, also a 1/day feat.

Thus, the problem is with Nightstick, not DMM. You as much admitted it won't work as well without it. It is all about opportunity cost: Do 3 feats + 1 Domain/18 Cha = 1/day all-day buff that can be dispelled? What could you have done with the 3 feats and Domain/resources spent to get 18 Cha instead? 3 out of 7 pre-Epic feats (8 if you get a racial one) is a fairly high opportunity cost, don't you think?

 

[Nifft]

Thus, the problem is with Nightstick, not DMM.

No.

DMM is the problem. Nightsticks merely make the problem worse.

36,000 gp = +6 Charisma item. Assuming your cleric starts with a 14 Charisma, that's the +5 Charisma bonus you need right there. Hello free Quicken 2/day.

Compare this to what the Wizard has to pay to Quicken his 9th level spell 3/day (170,000 gp).

Cheers, -- N

PS: But yeah, if you want to discuss this particular topic in depth, we should probably start a new thread.

 

[Cameron]

PS: But yeah, if you want to discuss this particular topic in depth, we should probably start a new thread.

Not particularly. Suffice to say that anyone who thinks 3 feats plus others is an insignificant investment is, *IMO*, not too attached to the realities of DnD3.x.

Sorry, not to sound arrogant and all, but that is just my take on it. In a blunt and uncompromising fashion...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Compare this to what the Wizard has to pay to Quicken his 9th level spell 3/day (170,000 gp).

Or 36,000 for three belts of battle. Coincidence? Spoooooky.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not particularly. Suffice to say that anyone who thinks 3 feats plus others is an insignificant investment is, *IMO*, not too attached to the realities of DnD3.x.

Sorry, not to sound arrogant and all, but that is just my take on it. In a blunt and uncompromising fashion...

I dunno. Nifft's insights into the rules seem to be pretty grounded as far as I've seen. Occasionally he'll actually come too far in the permissive side for my tastes (for instance, there was an Assassin PrC variant discussion a long while back that involved giving the Assassin 1d6 Sneak Attack every level for 10 levels and he thought it was not overpowered vis-a-vis Rogue), but I've never seen him underestimate the investment needed to get a particular power.

The 'but it costs resources' argument is inherently flawed and can be used to defend Frenzied Berserker (costs the intro feats you don't want and 10 levels of Barbarian abilities) or any of the other things in a thread like this. The fact is, in its extreme form, that argument could be used to defend a three feat chain that gives you +20 to AC and +20 to hit (but it costs three feats!).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Or 36,000 for three belts of battle. Coincidence? Spoooooky.

Well, you can find the prevailing thoughts on that whole Belt of Battle thing in that thread of Mistwell's